Official Judo Thread XI: Olympic Travesty Edition | Page 52

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Zankou, Aug 6, 2016.

  1. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    That's great that you are able to implement Judo into your Bjj game, I have a hard time doing so and have more success pulling guard. Maybe because I'm in the lighter wieght class and I'm still somewhat new to competing.
     
    #1021
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  2. Kenny from MD Less angry than before.

    Kenny from MD
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    It is definitely harder in the lighter weight classes to start off using Judo against good competitors because most opponents are adamant about not engaging the stand up portion. They come out in hyper defensive bent-over stances (they used to crawl before the IBJJF changed the rules and began penalizing it) and won't grip fight. They drop at the first instance of contact, and sometimes will slide under from a distance even. These are the guard players that have a very specific game and won't allow themselves to deviate.

    Where it can help however is in transition and especially defensively. I can't count how many times judo and wrestling has shut down a sweep attempt and solidified the time position. I think a really good example of this was at Worlds this year when Cobrinha chased Jamil Hil-Taylor from guard to his feet with a single attempt, only to be met with a hard uchi mata back to the ground. The video was scrubbed from the internet I think, but if you have Flo you can see it. The harai especially is such a powerful counter to anytime a guard player tries to chase you to your feet to finish a sweep, or comes out of position trying to secure you... for example here (hopefully this starts at the right time):

    I used to think "I am a guard player, wrestling and judo are useless for me and I can stay away from them." As you get better and more experienced, you'll find more ways to incorporate them and you'll see how seamlessly they work together, or at least that's been my experience. Even when I need to pull, the fact that I can now grip fight, and establish a good position to pull from by setting it up and not being rushed is very valuable.
     
    #1022
  3. Bluesbreaker Brown Belt

    Bluesbreaker
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    I'm fascinated by your findings, Kenny. Many guys attribute their scrambling abilities to learning some wrestling. It seems almost like your judo has worked a a counter to the wrestling-like scrambles.

    Am I correct? And if so, do you believe this is judo's best application in BJJ?
     
    #1023
  4. Kenny from MD Less angry than before.

    Kenny from MD
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    I'm definitely not anywhere near good enough at Judo, nor will I ever be, to definitively state where its best application lies. I wrestle at a very slow pace that disallows a lot of scrambling, so I wouldn't necessarily say that for me it has worked as a counter to that, but rather, it has afforded me a level of poise, control and confidence that I didn't have before.

    Specifically, for example: if a guard player tries to sweep me and stands up into a single to finish, I no longer have an "oh shit" feeling, or a sense that I am going to wind up on my back after being put on one foot. I feel that I can correctly position my body to defend, and specifically because of Judo, run through a grip sequence that in either negates the attack (usually through an over the back or belt grip) or sets the counter for me (in this case it would be osoto/harai).

    This is all just a long-winded way of touting the benefits of being more well rounded. You can't effecively fight someone you are afraid to stand in front of.
     
    #1024
  5. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    If you get sleeve control, then the stiff arm issue is not as hard to deal with.
     
    #1025
  6. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Technical grip-breaks are good, and it helps to be strong as hell to do them, especially to cut grips on a person with a strong grip. Not trivial even with good skills.
     
    #1026
  7. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    It's all about angles, timing, distance, control and use of space, etc. In other words, lining up your uke. Gripping is a part of that.
     
    #1027
  8. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    May have been tilted a bit to his front. But Riners pants are too short, that's for sure.
     
    #1028
  9. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Landing on side of leg doesn't count.

    I'd guess that landing on the elbow avoid contact of body with tatami, so no score.

    It's kinda arbitrary, really. Gotta live with it.
     
    #1029
  10. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    I agree, he's really amazing to watch.
     
    #1030
  11. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Your posture and movement are better, for sure. Keep your head up. You have a better idea, but execution is lacking.

    I think you still need to work on how to throw. That will require doing more drilling with a compliant uke, to improve your base skill level at throwing.

    As Quingtian noted, you are still dragging your partner down, which is linked to getting better at the base level throw.
     
    #1031
  12. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    I agree 100%.
     
    #1032
  13. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    You could work on simple ashi waza and transition to the ground, as you note. Those are easy falls for uke, but won't help you much with major throws to 4 quadrants.
     
    #1033
  14. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    The issue with doing "judo for bjj" is that you are not very good at either, but better at bjj. Doing Judo in a bjj environment is not trivial. I know, because I do both (bjj at 6:30 tonight).

    I'm a 3rd degree black belt, been doing Judo 37 years, and a blue belt in bjj.

    We gave you some advice on how to get better at nage waza, do the best you can at that. Listen to your coaches regarding what to do in BJJ. The rulesets are such that mixing judo with bjj in a bjj competition, for a person at your level, is tough to do.
     
    #1034
  15. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Ippon Seoinage is def more difficult from sleeve. I prefer to teach (other than O Goshi), throws where tori keeps both hands on uke. Simplifies matter. Once they have O goshi and Tsurikomi Goshi working, Ippon Seoi Nage usually isn't so difficult to learn.
     
    #1035
  16. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    LOL, Seoi Nage was my favorite technique, in it's various forms. I only use it in BJJ when I just want to throw the guy, knowing that I will get my back taken more than likely (if I'm working with a purple or brown belt and up).
     
    #1036
  17. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Learn to sprawl. You have to drill that, like anything else.
     
    #1037
  18. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    The tactic/strategy where I train BJJ is "get on top, stay on top", which involves winning takedown game. So that's more of a fit more me as a judoka than a guard-heavy game.

    The funny thing is, I want to improve my guard game because it has been de-emphasized for so long in Judo, at least relative to BJJ. So I work from guard a lot (my open guard wasn't so bad when I started BJJ, as I did much more guard work than most judoka IME). My BJJ coach is like, win the takedown and stay on top, or get out of guard and wrestle/win the scramble, and get on top.
     
    #1038
  19. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Nice, the level of coaching you are getting shows up very well, especially in your gripping. You are a lefty too, which messes with people.
     
    #1039
  20. Kenny from MD Less angry than before.

    Kenny from MD
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    Thank you very much. My coach places a lot of emphasis on grip fighting and I try to pay a lot of attention to my grips, frames and positioning before I even think about attacking (hopefully as I improve, this will become more fluid). Most of our sparring is actually grip fighting and moving each other around and taking position rather than just repping static throws, which I feel is really beneficial when it comes to responding to live opponents.

    He actually had me learn judo as a lefty, because I am right handed, but comfortable standing left foot forward due to boxing. I can shoot off either foot, so I'm ambidextrous with stand up in a sense and used to accidentally switch stances a lot, but he told me to make a concerted effort to learn as a lefty because like you said, it throws people off.

    Here's one other clip from the open belt division. I really tried to commit to the ura nage (my favorite throw) to counter his right hand grip and to keep my posture unbroken to defend the hip throw, but he started dropping all his weight and hanging off of me. I realized I was trying to bully him into it too much and when he went for the trip, switched to a forward throw which worked.

     
    #1040
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017

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