Official Judo Thread

That's great that you are able to implement Judo into your Bjj game, I have a hard time doing so and have more success pulling guard. Maybe because I'm in the lighter wieght class and I'm still somewhat new to competing.
 
Last edited:
It is definitely harder in the lighter weight classes to start off using Judo against good competitors because most opponents are adamant about not engaging the stand up portion. They come out in hyper defensive bent-over stances (they used to crawl before the IBJJF changed the rules and began penalizing it) and won't grip fight. They drop at the first instance of contact, and sometimes will slide under from a distance even. These are the guard players that have a very specific game and won't allow themselves to deviate.

Where it can help however is in transition and especially defensively. I can't count how many times judo and wrestling has shut down a sweep attempt and solidified the time position. I think a really good example of this was at Worlds this year when Cobrinha chased Jamil Hil-Taylor from guard to his feet with a single attempt, only to be met with a hard uchi mata back to the ground. The video was scrubbed from the internet I think, but if you have Flo you can see it. The harai especially is such a powerful counter to anytime a guard player tries to chase you to your feet to finish a sweep, or comes out of position trying to secure you... for example here (hopefully this starts at the right time):

I used to think "I am a guard player, wrestling and judo are useless for me and I can stay away from them." As you get better and more experienced, you'll find more ways to incorporate them and you'll see how seamlessly they work together, or at least that's been my experience. Even when I need to pull, the fact that I can now grip fight, and establish a good position to pull from by setting it up and not being rushed is very valuable.
 
I'm fascinated by your findings, Kenny. Many guys attribute their scrambling abilities to learning some wrestling. It seems almost like your judo has worked a a counter to the wrestling-like scrambles.

Am I correct? And if so, do you believe this is judo's best application in BJJ?
 
I'm definitely not anywhere near good enough at Judo, nor will I ever be, to definitively state where its best application lies. I wrestle at a very slow pace that disallows a lot of scrambling, so I wouldn't necessarily say that for me it has worked as a counter to that, but rather, it has afforded me a level of poise, control and confidence that I didn't have before.

Specifically, for example: if a guard player tries to sweep me and stands up into a single to finish, I no longer have an "oh shit" feeling, or a sense that I am going to wind up on my back after being put on one foot. I feel that I can correctly position my body to defend, and specifically because of Judo, run through a grip sequence that in either negates the attack (usually through an over the back or belt grip) or sets the counter for me (in this case it would be osoto/harai).

This is all just a long-winded way of touting the benefits of being more well rounded. You can't effecively fight someone you are afraid to stand in front of.
 
Thanks. Most of the time the person just holds on tight and sort of stiff arms me. But when they do that they are not attacking and they still let me get a grip on them which I can use to attack and of balance them.

Its kind of frustrating though.

If you get sleeve control, then the stiff arm issue is not as hard to deal with.
 
While there is a lot of technique in breaking grips, the fact remains that strength differences are part of the equation. You could choose to improve either, or look at ways to deal with the grip without breaking it.

Technical grip-breaks are good, and it helps to be strong as hell to do them, especially to cut grips on a person with a strong grip. Not trivial even with good skills.
 
I call it "T-ball Judo". If you need someone lined up for you to throw, you've got bigger problems than his grip. I don't think beginners should be told to use these tactics, any more than they should abuse power grips, sacrifice throws, or drag downs.
I call it "T-ball Judo". If you need someone lined up for you to throw, you've got bigger problems than his grip. I don't think beginners should be told to use these tactics, any more than they should abuse power grips, sacrifice throws, or drag downs.

It's all about angles, timing, distance, control and use of space, etc. In other words, lining up your uke. Gripping is a part of that.
 
Really though. In what way was this NOT a waza-ari? Riner clearly landed on his side.


May have been tilted a bit to his front. But Riners pants are too short, that's for sure.
 
Landing on your elbow doesn't mean anything though. There are a lot of guys who land their opponent on their side and elbow, and still get scored on. His hips and side of his leg both landed on the ground, why should landing on your elbow prevent any score? His body was facing side on... if landing on your side like that isn't a waza ari: I am not sure what is.

Landing on side of leg doesn't count.

I'd guess that landing on the elbow avoid contact of body with tatami, so no score.

It's kinda arbitrary, really. Gotta live with it.
 


Its been several months but here is another randori video. I'm in the blue gi. Do you think it was a good idea for me to switch from Seonage to Osotogari like that since uke was in a low stance and defended a couple times , or should I have just committed more to the shoulder throw?

Also does look like an effective Osotogari at the end or was it kind of crap? I'm kind of far away from him and low to the ground. Is that bad form or more or less what happens when I try to Osotogari someone moving backward?

Its kind of frustrating because that throw and that set up was more ore less what I wanted and what I have been drilling but it looks kind of sloppy to me.



Your posture and movement are better, for sure. Keep your head up. You have a better idea, but execution is lacking.

I think you still need to work on how to throw. That will require doing more drilling with a compliant uke, to improve your base skill level at throwing.

As Quingtian noted, you are still dragging your partner down, which is linked to getting better at the base level throw.
 
You've got to throw over and over again in nagekomi, moving nagekomi, cooperative drills, etc. You don't have the feel of the throw yet, nor do you know what steps are needed to be accomplished to control the throw. Frankly uke was not offering much defense at all, so the failure of the throw was mostly because you aren't getting enough throws done. Then you are rushing to complete in randori, despite how you may try to appear calm.

Not trying to sound harsh, but it's what we all have to go through when learning Judo.

I agree 100%.
 
Several people are improving, but not everyone is because attendance is spotty and the judo class is only 2 hours a week with 20 min of randori altogether . We do very little tachiwaza in the BJJ classes and when we do its pretty static.

A big problem is the mats are not very good and people do not like to be thrown on them. Also the class is mostly adult beginners and they don't take falls very well. Because of this there isn't enough nagekome as there should be perhaps, but focusing more on uchikomi and simple movement drills seems to be good for student retention.

My head judo coach tells me to be patient and that i will get better in time. He's also commented that I rush the throw a lot of the time etc

There is BJJ drills class were I could really do more nagekomi, but the problem is most of the people that go to that don't do judo and would not be good partners for standup grappling. But I would get more repetitions in. I guess I could work on a throw then a guard pass to make it easier on them and to get a feel for connecting tachiwaza to newaza which we don't really do with resistance.

You could work on simple ashi waza and transition to the ground, as you note. Those are easy falls for uke, but won't help you much with major throws to 4 quadrants.
 
I read that interview, and while I agree with a lot of the points I find uchimata and the other throws he mentioned much more difficult than ippon seionage.


Another thing is I've won more BJJ matches by pulling guard and then sweeping than by using judo to throw the guy and pass guard. But I still lose more BJJ matches than I win, and when I lose it tends to be because I get taken down by a double leg and then submitted or I get swept when I am on top.

My BJJ coaches are of the opinion I should continue with the guard pull strategy and I should use the judo in a limited way to control grips and perhaps to go for sacrifice throws.

Thinking more my options seem to be to try to keep what I do in the BJJ class and Judo class separate or maximizing my judo for bjj.

The issue with doing "judo for bjj" is that you are not very good at either, but better at bjj. Doing Judo in a bjj environment is not trivial. I know, because I do both (bjj at 6:30 tonight).

I'm a 3rd degree black belt, been doing Judo 37 years, and a blue belt in bjj.

We gave you some advice on how to get better at nage waza, do the best you can at that. Listen to your coaches regarding what to do in BJJ. The rulesets are such that mixing judo with bjj in a bjj competition, for a person at your level, is tough to do.
 
You are in a difficult situation. I remember when I first started I had to drive 45 minutes to get good randori. In your case you don't have a place to get lots of reps in.

I also think ippon seoi is difficult for beginners, and especially with the sleeve grip. There is a lot of extra coordination, lack of control by switching grips, and speed needed. I don't imagine it will happen without getting your reps in.

You reminded me of an interview of Okano. He mentioned the order of throws he teaches, and the rest of the interview is fantastic as well. It's well worth the read.

http://tomikiaikido.blogspot.com/2010/04/current-judo-will-not-produce-judo.html

Ippon Seoinage is def more difficult from sleeve. I prefer to teach (other than O Goshi), throws where tori keeps both hands on uke. Simplifies matter. Once they have O goshi and Tsurikomi Goshi working, Ippon Seoi Nage usually isn't so difficult to learn.
 
There are several people that have some skill because they wrestled in school or because they are athletic etc The problem is I don't get paired up with them for randori as much as people who are scared to fall.

Another frustration is that most of the classic judo throws do not translate very well to BJJ ruleset were people can stall with grips, getting a big throw is only worth 2 points, and who landed on top after a scramble is more important than who initiated the throw.

In a way dragging my opponent to the mat is more effective than something like seionage.

ADCC tachiwaza is pretty distinct from Olympic judo tachi waza for example

LOL, Seoi Nage was my favorite technique, in it's various forms. I only use it in BJJ when I just want to throw the guy, knowing that I will get my back taken more than likely (if I'm working with a purple or brown belt and up).
 
Also if someone tries a leg grab takedown on me I have no answer for that, which is frustrating I also struggle to do them. I'm currently debating whether to spend time trying to get better at that part of the game or to ignore it.

Learn to sprawl. You have to drill that, like anything else.
 
What should I do to get more out of randori? I don't mind being thrown a bunch of times as much as people refusing to attack and stalling using illegal grips. Basically most people try to play standup bjj with me and its really annoying.

Now of course there are things I can do to get around this but doing so isn't really technical judo.

How do you treat the differences between judo newaza and BJJ guard game?

The tactic/strategy where I train BJJ is "get on top, stay on top", which involves winning takedown game. So that's more of a fit more me as a judoka than a guard-heavy game.

The funny thing is, I want to improve my guard game because it has been de-emphasized for so long in Judo, at least relative to BJJ. So I work from guard a lot (my open guard wasn't so bad when I started BJJ, as I did much more guard work than most judoka IME). My BJJ coach is like, win the takedown and stay on top, or get out of guard and wrestle/win the scramble, and get on top.
 
RJ- I won brown belt middle heavy. I lost the third place match in the open on a questionable call in the last 10 seconds after being up the entire match, but as it was a local tournament and a friend was reffing, didn't care to press the issue further.

Thy- It was nice meeting you bro.

Here's some of the judo I've been working lately:
The ouchi from this weekend-
The harai from last weekend-
An ura nage from a judo tournament (open belt division) last month-
^That one was only for wazari. I had a much cleaner one for ippon in the novice division but I dont record my own matches, I only get to see what friends happen to shoot. Feel really good about my progress in the last 6-8 months given how Ive been incorporating it into my Jiu Jitsu, and the fact that less than a year ago I couldn't do anything but pull guard.


Nice, the level of coaching you are getting shows up very well, especially in your gripping. You are a lefty too, which messes with people.
 
Thank you very much. My coach places a lot of emphasis on grip fighting and I try to pay a lot of attention to my grips, frames and positioning before I even think about attacking (hopefully as I improve, this will become more fluid). Most of our sparring is actually grip fighting and moving each other around and taking position rather than just repping static throws, which I feel is really beneficial when it comes to responding to live opponents.

He actually had me learn judo as a lefty, because I am right handed, but comfortable standing left foot forward due to boxing. I can shoot off either foot, so I'm ambidextrous with stand up in a sense and used to accidentally switch stances a lot, but he told me to make a concerted effort to learn as a lefty because like you said, it throws people off.

Here's one other clip from the open belt division. I really tried to commit to the ura nage (my favorite throw) to counter his right hand grip and to keep my posture unbroken to defend the hip throw, but he started dropping all his weight and hanging off of me. I realized I was trying to bully him into it too much and when he went for the trip, switched to a forward throw which worked.

 
Last edited:
Back
Top