Official Judo Thread XI: Olympic Travesty Edition | Page 44

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Zankou, Aug 6, 2016.

  1. QingTian Purple Belt

    QingTian
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    If you don't grip at your own level you will leave your hand behind in forward throws... simple as that.
     
    #861
  2. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Not if you pull the grip down to your level (level with shoulder). That is the mechanically correct way to do it.
     
    #862
  3. QingTian Purple Belt

    QingTian
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    Originally I was typing this but I cut it short to avoid all the ifs and buts. You can make any grip work but that doesn't mean it's the easy way to do things. With resistance from uke you can still fail to do your adjustments.
     
    #863
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  4. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    I agree. Tori uses a lot of energy to hold uke down, and, against a skilled opponent of near equal strength, it may not last for long.

    It's a balancing act of energy consumption versus effectiveness. Personally, I don't play that way, but it CAN be effective. I prefer to be more mobile and use my grips as frames and/or connectors, depending on the situation.

    The high collar/pull down grip isn't the best way to learn Judo at first, either, IME. Too specialized...
     
    #864
  5. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    Ive decided undertook is best for tall people and color grip is best for shorter people.

    Now my frustration is not with myself but with my training partners, the last couple judo practices ive had tell someone 40 pounds and several inches taller than me not use sacrifice throw on me. Its a bit awkward because Tani Otoshi is the move of the week, and that is one of the throws I use sometimes . But it makes no sense for someone much heavier and taller to do it to me...

    I try to explain that tani otoshi is more of a counter than a standalone move and that he should use a throw like Osoto Gari because he is taller than me but I'm not sure he gets it.



    Also I don't understand why the coaches pair up people that are really mismatched in terms of size and height.

     
    #865
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
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  6. Russky Green Belt

    Russky
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    Why?
     
    #866
  7. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    Several reasons.

    One is that its a hard fall for me to take, even if I don't resist ant take the fall his 185 pounds is gonna come down on my 145 pounds.

    2. Is that he is negating his own height advantage and making it easier for me to counter. I would have a harder time stopping a hip throw or trip.

    3 Is I've seen a couple older bigger white belts get hurt doing sacrifice throw or trying to do them . This guy is 35 and still clumsy.
     
    #867
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  8. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Tani Otoshi can be a counter or stand-alone throw, doesn't really matter. Taller guys can definitely make it work, but so can shorter guys.

    As a coach, I generally try to pair people up who are similar in size/build. This is particularly true for beginners. For more experienced judoka, size mismatches are more useful, IME, as they more experienced have the skill set/levels to adapt.
     
    #868
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  9. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Hmm, I don't teach Tani Otoshi to white belts, or any other counters other than ashi waza counters. So I'm k inda with you on this one.

    The potential for knee injuries is pretty high with Tani Otoshi, I've seen several, and they were all beginners (lower colored belts). Also, teaching counters at that level tends to result in less offensive action. It's easier to sit back and wait for the other beginner to make a clumsy throw attempt, and counter with a crappy Tani Otoshi.

    In the context of beginners, Tani Otoshi is a bad idea.
     
    #869
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  10. Kbits Orange Belt

    Kbits
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    Huh?

    1) His weight shouldn't be coming down on you at all - he sits back and down.

    2) I'm 6 foot, I do taniotoshi all the time. Height has nothing to do with. Infact being taller makes the throw better against short people IMHO

    3) Yes; people do crappy tani's. If you're going to do them or teach them, do em right. Tanis and Ura-nages are a known knee crippler when done wrong. Not quite as bad as osotos but up there

    https://www.researchgate.net/public...ent_injuries_in_judo_A_retrospective_analysis
     
    #870
  11. RJ Green Black Belt

    RJ Green
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    tani otoshi is such a shit throw until you're past citrus belt. until then it's basically just lazy people hugging your waist and falling down because they can't throw good.

    i'm not saying it's worthless or anything, but it allows people who haven't developed good footsweeps or hip tosses to feel like they're doing something worthwhile with their time, which they really aren't.
     
    #871
  12. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    yeah, my thoughts exactly.

    I feel like I can give the lower belts a lot of advice and coaching they are not getting from the senior people, but I'm not sure I should. After all I'm a sloppy green belt.
     
    #872
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  13. RJ Green Black Belt

    RJ Green
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    teaching people is a great way to build rapport and improve your own technique. it's also a great way to make people feel like you're stepping on their toes.

    sensei used to say "would you feed a baby steak?"

    which is a pretty great metaphor for the most part. citrus belts are apt to chomp at the bit for new technique before they've gotten the basics down pat. tani otoshi's a great case-in-point: people might be able to catch a few sloppy counters with it on people at/below their level, but if it becomes something they're overly reliant on it can stunt their progression.

    plus, instructors tend to want to limit injuries for beginners so they keep training. it might come off as coddling, but people who've been around long enough know how easy it is for injured folks to fall off the wagon/face of the earth.

    there's a fine line between specialization and generalization too. on one hand, a lot of the same principles (posture, position, pressure) will apply to a variety of throws, guards, pins, and subs, but on the other hand they're in different contexts.

    the most well-crafted house will still crumble if it's not built on a solid foundation. granted, spending a lot of time on the foundation will feel like you're stuck in a basement, but once you've got a solid foundation you can build and renovate the house as you see fit.
     
    #873
  14. MadSquabbles500 Gold Belt

    MadSquabbles500
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    In the first vid, isnt one of the guys holding an illegal grip? Both of his grips are on one side.
     
    #874
  15. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Nice post for sure.

    Last paragraph is most pertinent IME.

    Foundational Judo will take a person pretty darned far, to shodan for sure. The other issue is general physical literacy, which is what most people, especially adult beginners, typically lack, or are at least deficient for purposes of the Judo they want to be able to do.
     
    #875
  16. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    I don't understand why most judo teachers operate on a move of the week curriculum and don't encourage cardio/ agility training outside of judo class.

    I've had multiple judo instructors and only one told me to practice footwork outside of class...
     
    #876
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  17. QingTian Purple Belt

    QingTian
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    There is just too much to cover for a part time gig. I mean, what are you paying for Judo?

    Make the best of what you have, and just do it.
     
    #877
  18. RJ Green Black Belt

    RJ Green
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    different techniques work for different body types.

    it's like kindergarten thru 8th grade - everyone starts off learning counting and their ABCs. then you learn addition, subtraction, and reading. then you learn multiplication, division, and sentence structure.

    building these foundations lets you explore new ideas in disciplines with a more focused manner - composition/voice in writing, functions in math, etc.

    most people never need differential equations or technical writing, but it still behooves the former to know how to string sentences together and the latter to know how to compound interest.

    same thing with judo - each throw will re-enforce fundamental concepts shared by all judo throws, while the variety will provide people a repertoire of throws that gives them options for specialization.
     
    #878
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  19. Ippy Ik ben Groot.

    Ippy
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    @RJ Green

    You get your shodan yet, brah?
     
    #879
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  20. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Most in your experience, which is not a lot of experience.

    I'm going to guess your limited view of Judo is mostly recreational judo clubs. Truly competitive programs will have be running a periodized program of technical and physical training.

    In fact, recreational clubs could be run that way, but most Judo coaches in the USA are not professional coaches, and likely lack the training to do so.
     
    #880
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