Official Judo Thread XI: Olympic Travesty Edition | Page 43

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Zankou, Aug 6, 2016.

  1. Kbits Orange Belt

    Kbits
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    That's starting to look better IMHO
     
    #841
  2. Thycidides Blue Belt

    Thycidides
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    I noticed I'm trying to outgrip the bigger guy with my hands and out maneuver the smaller guy with my feet. From what you posted before I should be doing the opposite, but I have a hard time time trying to use foot sweeps against taller people.
     
    #842
  3. Kbits Orange Belt

    Kbits
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    It's hard to get optimal grips small vs tall. Try learning to do footsweeps using belt (not lapel or high collar). It's unorthodox but could help.
     
    #843
  4. RJ Green Black Belt

    RJ Green
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    it's much easier for a tall person to footsweep a shorter person, and much easier for a shorter person to get underneath of a tall person.
     
    #844
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  5. CALIAMA White Belt

    CALIAMA
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  6. ArtemV Silver Belt

    ArtemV
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    I haven't read this conversation lol, but if I were in randori with a taller opponent, I would not work from a sleeve/lapel grip. I would have a sleeve grip, but I would grip high on the collar; behind the neck or grab somewhere near their shoulder blades. This was I could work for harai goshi, osoto gari/otoshi, tai otoshi etc. Also, the seoi otoshi, which I have recently being trying out more often.
     
    #846
  7. ArtemV Silver Belt

    ArtemV
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    #847
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  8. RJ Green Black Belt

    RJ Green
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    how's that going for you?

    the higher above your head you're reaching, the less power you're gonna have. unless you've got enough weight to bend uke down with a headlock you're giving up a lot of the oomph of your kazushi and basically relying on hanging on him.

    you're basically playing tall man grips/throws against a tall guy, but without any of the biomechanical advantage being tall affords...
     
    #848
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  9. ArtemV Silver Belt

    ArtemV
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    Honestly, it isn't that bad. I am 5'6, and the tallest guy there is around 6'0 - I don't try this tactic against him, as he is too tall lol; I try to get a sleeve grip and an low underhook grip (lower on his back, but a bit below his belt) and go for uki goshi or kouchi gari/sasae tsurikomi ashi. But most other partners in my club are around 5'7-5'10, I don't really have a problem with it.

    But you're right, I don't try and go for any techniques while he is standing taller than me, I just try and arch the uke's back, or try and get their head over their own feet - so it is a little easier to go for ouchi gari/osoto gari/otoshi. I do have to make quite a lot of effort and sometimes expend more energy than I would like to.

    I have only started using this strategy a few months ago as I just wanted to try something different, it is far from perfect.
     
    #849
  10. RJ Green Black Belt

    RJ Green
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    i re-read that and realized i sounded like a pompous ass, my bad!

    yeah, it's not a terrible tactic on people within a few inches of your height, but once you're considerably shorter you're at a significant disadvantage. you're basically already extending your arm on someone that height, so instead of having to pull for kazushi i can use your overzealousness with the grip and a backstep. plus, you've already elevated your elbow, which opens up a ton of footsweep options.

    honestly, guys that grip my sleeves or a lower grip on the collar can give me fits if they're fast enough. i've played some great japanese guys, and it seems like they grip at their own shoulder-height rather than reaching up for the collar. when they turn in for a throw they're still making great back-to-belly contact, and they're low enough that it's really hard to sprawl back out of. same with the sode grip.

    taking a high collar grip means you've gotta keep them in front of your shoulder for the turning throws. it works great on harai or osoto, but it's very hard to convert those into a morote grip.
     
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  11. Bluesbreaker Brown Belt

    Bluesbreaker
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    I've never had as much time off judo as I have now. I went back last night after having time off for working and having the flu. I felt like the slowest, weakest, scaredest man in the world. Ugh. I won't let that happen again.
     
    #851
  12. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    I remember my coach coming back from the a training camp at the olympic training center and teaching me the yoko sankaku roll in it's basic form....1982? Became my go-too move for many, many years.

    Attacking turtle with almost anything often comes with high energy expenditure, so must be done wisely. The action-reaction series has to be worked out and drilled, eventually against fully-resisting training partners who know the defensive moves.
     
    #852
  13. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Well, that's a subject near and dear to my heart...

    Primary issue is too much randori too soon. You can't expect beginners to have much control of their own bodies, let alone two bodies flying through space. Plus, most of them are probably testosterone-laden younger guys so go figure....

    First is culture, protecting your uke (jita kyoei and all that good stuff). It has to be emphasized that if you do not have training partners, you can't do Judo. We are a team, so we do not want to injure each other, etc.

    Using a crash pad to build up speed and power for beginners is not a good idea, IME. First you need control, then you build speed, then "power". The power generation is in a way, IMO, really a function of of the first two plus good "technique". Using a crash pad covers up bad ukemi and poor control by tori.

    Yes, you have to build ukemi skills as well. If you toss out power, and work at slow to moderate speed, and use throwing from knees and other simplified combined ukemi, throwing drills, and emphasize that they are learning control and also how to protect each other and themselves, the usual impatience gets moderated enough...

    I use a LOT of drills, including solo movement, paired movement drills to get people used to moving alone, and with another person, and then a whole group moving about the tatami. We play soccer on the tatami paired up, I throw soft obstacles on the tatami they are not allowed to touch, go "out of bounds", etc. Those can evolve into competitive drills and I use them all as warmups instead of other more boring stuff (standard general warm-up stuff I keep quite short, maybe 5 minutes at most...jogging, etc.).

    Over time, people become more and more coordinated and skillful, and you can ramp up intensity. Highly skilled judoka train at full speed and high intensity, yet somehow manage not to kill themselves or their training partners...

    I teach what I call levels of control in throwing.
    1.) Throw and remain standing, control uke.
    2.) Throw, remain standing (not sutemi waza), and pin. This starts out slowly, and gets faster and faster, but tori always makes sure to control uke safely, then transition to the pin (or choke or armbar).
    3.) Throw into pin or armbar, as appopriate. There are degrees of speed and continuity as you know. This gets into transitions, and as you know that's a broad subject that has it' own sets of drills and training.
    4.) Throw with full follow-through, rolling over/though, but also can be the final stage using crash pad for 3 and 4 and "landing" on uke full contest style.

    I emphasize good posture, movement, gripping, and ukemi the beginning. Without those, everything else is going to suck. White belts get taught grip-move sequences, and I turn those into grip-move-throw-katame waza sequences as quickly as I safely can, even if they are dumbed down quite a bit.

    I do not emphasize learning a bunch of throws perfectly, because the process is what produces the throw. Like I tell my students, the throw is the easier part if the rest is done reasonably well. You have to get into a good spot at the correct time, and posture/grip/move is how that happens.

    You have to use your judgement as to what people are ready to do in relative safety. It's often slow and painstaking progress.
     
    #853
  14. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Agree with kbits, starting to look better. Your posture is better, you are keeping you head up much more.

    You need to learn where to grip the judogi, and work more on keeping your posture while doing randori. You are a righty, so keep that right foot forward and do tsugi ashi.

    If you can practice moving with a cooperative partner, it will help.
     
    #854
  15. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Taller people tend to hold you (everyone in general) away (control space), so it's harder to get proper position for a foot sweep, or something like kouchi gari or ouchi gari.

    Sleeve control is your friend, in either case.
     
    #855
  16. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    That one was the subject of a discussion on the judo coaches connection facebook group, LOL!

    Several people thought in a judo tournament it would have been HSM because Kawazu Gake...

    That was a fun one...
     
    #856
  17. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    So you are shorter, and you are going to get a high grip and pull a taller person down.

    Could work if you can do it, but odds are not in your favor against a taller person who knows what they are doing.
     
    #857
  18. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    I'm 5'7"...

    Your clarification makes more sense than your original post.
     
    #858
  19. BKR Orange Belt

    BKR
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    Basic lapel grip is at or slightly above your own shoulder is what every Japanese judo coach has ever told me. Higher grip and you need to pull uke down that level for reasons you noted already (hand above own shoulder weakens posture etc.).
     
    #859
  20. ArtemV Silver Belt

    ArtemV
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    Yep, I only do it if they are a few inches above me, if someone is round 6 foot, I won't even try it. My height isn't too short to deal with taller judoka, and isn't too tall for smaller judoka. It would be stupid af if I were to try and grip the back of collar on a 6 foot judoka lol.
     
    #860

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