Official Judo Thread

Thycidides said:
What do you guys think of teaching throws based on skill level and organizing training around belt tests rather than competition? For example today I spent a bunch of time struggling to do tsuri komi goshi and Okuriashi Harai because one of my coach thinks brown belts should be able to do those throws for the test.
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Knowing how to demo a throw is just 1% of the work needed to apply the throw in randori. Just get it done.

I think demo tests are pointless but that isn't the point... At this stage anything help you. It's always helpful to broaden your horizons. Don't worry about how non-ideal your training is and just put in the work. There is no other way (Luke).
 
To be honest I don't know anything about cooking.

I should have been clearer earlier when I said move of the week.



My main gym is organized by a concept of the month and each week there is a different move related to that concept. Additionally the coaches will recommend people work on a specific throw in randori. This gym is smaller so there is more of an individual focus.


At the other gym the move of the week is more or less tied to the belt test. If something is taught it will be on a belt test. But the are a bunch of different belts at the club so one week the main lesson is yellow belt material and the next is brown belt.


I was told to practice the ko ouchi makikomi by the head coach at my main club because it is applicable to BJJ. He saw my sucky attempts at seionage and tomoe nage at the tournament and has decided a new approach is needed.
 
Thycidides said:
To be honest I don't know anything about cooking.

I should have been clearer earlier when I said move of the week.



My main gym is organized by a concept of the month and each week there is a different move related to that concept. Additionally the coaches will recommend people work on a specific throw in randori. This gym is smaller so there is more of an individual focus.


At the other gym the move of the week is more or less tied to the belt test. If something is taught it will be on a belt test. But the are a bunch of different belts at the club so one week the main lesson is yellow belt material and the next is brown belt.


I was told to practice the ko ouchi makikomi by the head coach at my main club because it is applicable to BJJ. He saw my sucky attempts at seionage and tomoe nage at the tournament and has decided a new approach is needed.
Click to expand...

Kouchi makikomi is about the worst throw to use in BJJ. Lose if you miss, lose if you hit. It's the flying back giveaway.
 
Thycidides said:
So I spent my time in randori trying to do ko ouchi makikomi and had limited success. It didn't work so good as a single attack but I think I was able to set up seionage with it.

I could he wrong, but it feels like I have to vary my attack somewhat.


What do you guys think of teaching throws based on skill level and organizing training around belt tests rather than competition? For example today I spent a bunch of time struggling to do tsuri komi goshi and Okuriashi Harai because one of my coach thinks brown belts should be able to do those throws for the test.
Click to expand...

Brown belt meaning sankyu, nikyu, or ikkyu?

Tsurikomi Goshi is a fundamental turning throw, so it would be good if you could do it for at least sankyu, nikyu or ikkyu for sure. I teach it to white belts, it's not that difficult to get a basic version down.
Think O Goshi but holding onto lapel instead of putting arm around back.

Okuriashi Barai is not unreasonable for sankyu, any nikyu or ikkyu should be able to do it. It's in the Nage no Kata, and most brown belt rank requirements have you doing at least some of the Nage no Kata.

A "normal" Kouchi Gari is usually used to set up other throws, as previously noted by Kbits. Kouchi Makikomi is often used as a followup throw after a Ippon Seoi Nage attack, when uke reacts backwards strongly. I in fact used to do a combination of Kouchi Makikomi to Ippon Seoi Nage. Sometimes you end up doing Uchi Makikomi instead, but it's all good.

Remember to keep you head up, your elbows down, and your knees flexed, weight on balls of your feet, or not much is going to work...regardless.
 
Thycidides said:
To be honest I don't know anything about cooking.

I should have been clearer earlier when I said move of the week.



My main gym is organized by a concept of the month and each week there is a different move related to that concept. Additionally the coaches will recommend people work on a specific throw in randori. This gym is smaller so there is more of an individual focus.


At the other gym the move of the week is more or less tied to the belt test. If something is taught it will be on a belt test. But the are a bunch of different belts at the club so one week the main lesson is yellow belt material and the next is brown belt.


I was told to practice the ko ouchi makikomi by the head coach at my main club because it is applicable to BJJ. He saw my sucky attempts at seionage and tomoe nage at the tournament and has decided a new approach is needed.
Click to expand...

Kouchi Makikomi for BJJ...well, I'd hesitate to use it do to the back exposure...unless you are really, really good at it and can totally roll through to a control position. Make a mistake, though, and you just gave your back away. When I competed, I used Kouchi Makikomi a LOT, so I'm not unfamiliar with it and it's applications. "Judo for BJJ" is an interesting topic.

I'd say that until you get pretty good at Judo, it will be tough going. The different ruleset will really punish you for doing stuff that in Judo is OK. Not that I have ever thought giving one's back in Judo was a good idea. I know my judo teachers would make you pay for that, but that was not the most common of attitudes.

Someone mentioned it earlier, Judo is a deep rabbit hole, LOL ! Progress goes to those who persevere and train effectively, with lots of training partners being a big plus.
 
QingTian said:
Kouchi makikomi is about the worst throw to use in BJJ. Lose if you miss, lose if you hit. It's the flying back giveaway.
Click to expand...

word. there's the bail over to side control but the odds you'll get there before they take your back are low.

i'm surprised his coach picked *that* throw of all throws...
 
Thycidides said:
So I spent my time in randori trying to do ko ouchi makikomi and had limited success. It didn't work so good as a single attack but I think I was able to set up seionage with it.

I could he wrong, but it feels like I have to vary my attack somewhat.


What do you guys think of teaching throws based on skill level and organizing training around belt tests rather than competition? For example today I spent a bunch of time struggling to do tsuri komi goshi and Okuriashi Harai because one of my coach thinks brown belts should be able to do those throws for the test.
Click to expand...

Regarding how to organize training, that's a fairly complex topic. Skill level comes into play of course, as does age. Long term athlete development (LTAD) is how we organize our training.

For example: http://www.judocanada.org/long-term-athlete-development-model/

It is tied into the whole kyu-dan belt rank "model", which I have had issues with "teaching to" for quite some time (couple of decades, LOL?).

I view Judo skill as built on fundamental building blocks/skills/concepts/principles, and of course on basic physical literacy (a word I got from the LTAD model).

So you have general physical literacy (athletic ability, but a less loaded term?), without which \sport specific physical literacy (like Judo) is difficult and painful to build.

Ideally, kids would build up their basic physical literacy (ABC'S-agility, balance, coordination, speed) through a variety of sports/recreational/play activities, and then focus on one or two activities they enjoy. Judo could be one of those activities. Competition would not be a big focus for young kids (or adults starting Judo (or jogging, etc.). Often adults who lack physical literacy are kind of like kids who are starting out in the cycle...

I mean, how many adults who jog or ride a bike for general health do races?

Belt obsession gets in the way of real progress quite often.

Anyway, a bit off topic...
 
RJ Green said:
word. there's the bail over to side control but the odds you'll get there before they take your back are low.

i'm surprised his coach picked *that* throw of all throws...
Click to expand...

It does seem a bit odd for sure. BJJ guys are really, really good at getting on your back, as they should be (as should judoka, LOL).

I could work, but margin of error is slim...
 
Thycidides said:
To be honest I don't know anything about cooking.

I should have been clearer earlier when I said move of the week.



My main gym is organized by a concept of the month and each week there is a different move related to that concept. Additionally the coaches will recommend people work on a specific throw in randori. This gym is smaller so there is more of an individual focus.


At the other gym the move of the week is more or less tied to the belt test. If something is taught it will be on a belt test. But the are a bunch of different belts at the club so one week the main lesson is yellow belt material and the next is brown belt.


I was told to practice the ko ouchi makikomi by the head coach at my main club because it is applicable to BJJ. He saw my sucky attempts at seionage and tomoe nage at the tournament and has decided a new approach is needed.
Click to expand...

Give me an example or two of the concepts of which you speak, please. I'm curious...might learn something.
 
BKR said:
Give me an example or two of the concepts of which you speak, please. I'm curious...might learn something.
Click to expand...

Well one month will be ways to counter or negate a stiff arm and " break a frame", another will be how to use foot work to set up a footsweep or " take a line. Like i said before its taught similar to BJJ.

Regarding the ko ouchi makikomi, the version im being taught relies on me getting an arm drag and switching to a underhook with my right hand to negate the back take. It is an awkward transition, but Im not sure of a better throw,
 
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BKR said:
Regarding how to organize training, that's a fairly complex topic. Skill level comes into play of course, as does age. Long term athlete development (LTAD) is how we organize our training.

For example: http://www.judocanada.org/long-term-athlete-development-model/

It is tied into the whole kyu-dan belt rank "model", which I have had issues with "teaching to" for quite some time (couple of decades, LOL?).

I view Judo skill as built on fundamental building blocks/skills/concepts/principles, and of course on basic physical literacy (a word I got from the LTAD model).

So you have general physical literacy (athletic ability, but a less loaded term?), without which \sport specific physical literacy (like Judo) is difficult and painful to build.

Ideally, kids would build up their basic physical literacy (ABC'S-agility, balance, coordination, speed) through a variety of sports/recreational/play activities, and then focus on one or two activities they enjoy. Judo could be one of those activities. Competition would not be a big focus for young kids (or adults starting Judo (or jogging, etc.). Often adults who lack physical literacy are kind of like kids who are starting out in the cycle...

I mean, how many adults who jog or ride a bike for general health do races?

Belt obsession gets in the way of real progress quite often.

Anyway, a bit off topic...
Click to expand...

I really like the Canadian LTAD model (there are others too...but I like the Canadian one the best).

As you know, Judo has a pipeline issue. Lots of kids, cadets....huge gap....then veterans returning to judo (often bringing their kids along with them). Lots of problems with that not least of which is adult drop out due to poor GPP.

I really do think the LTAD model (which focuses on fun, fitness and skill development across the lifespan) is important...much more so than just belts or just shiai.

OTOH, I do think seniors need to be recognized for what they do (I've written elsewhere about my Masters level points not counting towards shodan).

One of the things I liked about training in Japan was the focus on tumbling / gymnastics as part of the warm up. I might get the guys to do more of that today...though I did get accused of teaching breakdancing last week (made them do sit outs, rolls, getting up from turtle etc).
 
Kbits said:
Also, on the topic of judo for BJJ, here's what I've been doing and why. YMMV

https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/3ctd3q/this_is_what_i_teach_bjjers/
Click to expand...


I'm curious, have you or any of your students had success with these throws in BJJ competition? I've had limited success with uke waza, Osotogari and koshi garuma.

Also most of my randori sessions are 10 min like yours, its kind of a relief to see that as I had thought a big problem with both clubs was a lack of randori.
 
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Yes, I believe they've had success. The throws aren't "pretty" by judo standards but they work in their context.

You'll note I only teach one sacrifice throw (because they were doing it anyway). I generally wouldn't do this when teaching upright judo.

IMHO, the best throws for BJJ (ones that cross over in gi/no gi) are kouchi, ankle pick and things off underhook/overhooks like hip throws. They still need to spend time in the Gi learning the finer points of body control (gi's as training wheels).

To be fair, I'm teaching them judo throws for BJJ, not judo. It's a subtle but important difference

Ps: they start their rolls standing so it's more than 10 mins randori

Pps: I've done judo for a long time; my tokuiwaza is the Kashiwazaki yoko tomoe...which is BJJ kryptonite. Also foot sweeps, sumi gaeshi, tsuri goshi etc. Weird stuff for a guy my size / build. It's not something I recommend for beginners though. For beginners, you must develop a forward throw (tsuri goshi is good value for money and a doorway into uchimata, harai etc) and a good backward throw. Once you have that base, you can grow. Don't start with sutemi waza
 
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