Official Judo Thread VII

[Doughbelly]

Originally Posted by Doughbelly View Post
Take two superficially similar but mechanically very different throws - sasae tsurikomi ashi and hiza guruma.

Sasae tsurikomi ashi, particularly textbook STA from classical grips is not a short man's throw. Outside of variations where tori is body to body with uke and lifts uke completely onto himself, sasae tsurikomi ashi quickly become more difficult to do with an increasing height/limb length disadvantage. After a certain point in height disparity, it becomes pointless. On the other hand, my taller opponent gains a significant edge as he gets taller.

OTOH, hiza guruma is a much tighter, compact motion for the smaller man and can be used despite large height discrepancies.

I do both of them as lateral drop, trapping stiff arm under my armpit.

Well, it is a bit of a sliding scale, but the point being that the principal action of sasae tsurikomi ashi happens in kuzushi; without tori pulling uke up and forward, it is not sasae tsurikomi ashi. Sasae tsurikomi ashi is no more realistic in practice (with standard grips) for a 5' 6" tori to perform on a 6' 2" uke than a 6' 2" tori to perform morote seoi nage on a 5' 6" uke.

Speaking in classical terms, sasae tsurikomi ashi has a very clear upper body lift component (elbow pointed and pulling up and out in classical form) whereas hiza guruma you're pulling down and around the circle defined by the pivot of the knee.

Without seeing your lateral drop, it's hard to say.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

Harai requires complete upper body control, whereas uchimata is much more forgiving.

To add to this, harai goshi and uchi mata are very different throws and if you're thinking of them as being related and/or similar in nature, you are doing yourself no favors.

Harai goshi is in essence, a circular upper body throw. People get hung up on the sweeping of the leg, but a harai goshi can be done with minimal blocking/sweeping. The principal action of a harai goshi happens at the hips and the upper body and pivots around a vertical axis.

Uchi mata is more or less a linear lower body throw. In principal, with perfect timing, you can do uchi mata with no upper body contact. With uke in a position of broken balance, feet shoulder width apart, ass out, leaning forward and on his toes, you should be able to hit uchi mata on the basis of leg action alone.

To be fair, he didn't say that they were identical, but just that they were similar... which they are, at least when talking about their entries.

 

[The Karate Man]

I thought you were training for MMA? I don't really know what aikijitsu is but it doesn't sound like it would be very useful for it.

I am training for MMA, and I thought the same thing at first. The problem is that as of now, I've been living in the middle of nowhere, and there isn't a BJJ club, Muay Thai Gym, MMA gym or anything for at least 100 miles, and I'm not going to move until next month.

However, I have amazing training partners at the East Texas Judo Jujitsu Club. The name of the system is Mushin Budo Aikijitsu. Collectively, so there are so many styles and so many backgrounds that train here, we're constantly learning from each other. Lots of Tae Kwon Do practitioners, BJJ guys, Judo guys, Aikido, and even Kung Fu. Surprisingly enough, Kung Fu isn't 100% bullshit. I was being taught the TKD wheel kick from a missed roundhouse, and a guy showed me a little step from Kung Fu that made the 2nd kick so much more powerful. We all have a passion for martial arts, and with so many diverse backgrounds, we're able to pull various things from so many different styles. I was the only Karateka at first, and guys were interested with my style and noticed the subtle similarities between Shorin Ryu footwork and Judo, so now guys come to my Karate gym and train with me.

On top of all that, we do plenty of mma style sparring after class, and also work the pads.

https://www.facebook.com/EastTexasJudoJujitsuClub

I'm going to try to make this page more active. We moved into a much more spacious building, and our line-up has changed drastically.

We have a programme over here if you're under 25 where you get a single weave judo gi, free gradings to 5th kyu (only 2 and I think you can do them both at once) plus membership for a year for

 

[Doughbelly]

To be fair, he didn't say that they were identical, but just that they were similar... which they are, at least when talking about their entries.

IMO, this is one of those things where linguistic implications get lost in translation.

"Harai" in this sense means "turning" and implies rotation. Harai goshi is classically translated as "sweeping hip throw" whereas the better way to think about it that encompasses the original term and intent is "rotating hip throw."

OTOH, understood in context, "uchi mata" implies a reap of the inner thigh.

Not knowing what you already know about the initial footwork, if you heard these terms that describe the principal action in isolation - "inner thigh reap" vs "rotating hip throw," would you assume that these techniques are related to each other?

 

[Einarr]

I am training for MMA, and I thought the same thing at first. The problem is that as of now, I've been living in the middle of nowhere, and there isn't a BJJ club, Muay Thai Gym, MMA gym or anything for at least 100 miles, and I'm not going to move until next month.

However, I have amazing training partners at the East Texas Judo Jujitsu Club. The name of the system is Mushin Budo Aikijitsu. Collectively, so there are so many styles and so many backgrounds that train here, we're constantly learning from each other. Lots of Tae Kwon Do practitioners, BJJ guys, Judo guys, Aikido, and even Kung Fu. Surprisingly enough, Kung Fu isn't 100% bullshit. I was being taught the TKD wheel kick from a missed roundhouse, and a guy showed me a little step from Kung Fu that made the 2nd kick so much more powerful. We all have a passion for martial arts, and with so many diverse backgrounds, we're able to pull various things from so many different styles. I was the only Karateka at first, and guys were interested with my style and noticed the subtle similarities between Shorin Ryu footwork and Judo, so now guys come to my Karate gym and train with me.

On top of all that, we do plenty of mma style sparring after class, and also work the pads.

https://www.facebook.com/EastTexasJudoJujitsuClub

I'm going to try to make this page more active. We moved into a much more spacious building, and our line-up has changed drastically.



Not that I am aware of, but I seriously doubt it. If you haven't caught on to the trend yet, people in America are greedy as fuck.

Sounds like a load of TMA dweebs playing at MMA. Isn't there somewhere better anywhere near you? Sparring with Kung Fools and Aikidorks won't help you - iron sharpens iron.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Sounds like a load of TMA dweebs playing at MMA. Isn't there somewhere better anywhere near you? Sparring with Kung Fools and Aikidorks won't help you - iron sharpens iron.

Lots of MMA guys have TMA backgrounds, as long as you're sparring hard then I don't think it matters if you learned your roundhouse in a kung fu school vs. a kickboxing class. It doesn't sound like he's doing no touch Aikido BS, it sounds like a bunch of guys who want to get better trading techniques and sparring. Which is one of the best ways to learn MMA IMO.

Also, you really shouldn't call people out while using retarded cliches like 'iron sharpens iron'. Iron can't sharpen f%&ing iron, only a harder material can sharpen iron. I wish people would stop using that phrase.

 

[Doughbelly]

IMO, this is one of those things where linguistic implications get lost in translation.

"Harai" in this sense means "turning" and implies rotation. Harai goshi is classically translated as "sweeping hip throw" whereas the better way to think about it that encompasses the original term and intent is "rotating hip throw."

OTOH, understood in context, "uchi mata" implies a reap of the inner thigh.

Not knowing what you already know about the initial footwork, if you heard these terms that describe the principal action in isolation - "inner thigh reap" vs "rotating hip throw," would you assume that these techniques are related to each other?

By this, I mean there is less of a linguistic conceptual gap in context between uchi mata and o uchi gari than there is between uchi mata and harai goshi.

 

[Einarr]

Also, you really shouldn't call people out while using retarded cliches like 'iron sharpens iron'. Iron can't sharpen f%&ing iron, only a harder material can sharpen iron. I wish people would stop using that phrase.

Umm, you typically maintain sharpness of a high carbon cutting edge with a hardened/heat treated/machined iron file. Especially where a harsher whetstone would have a tendency to erode the material unevenly.

How do you even survive in the 21st century without knowing how to sharpen your sword, bro?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Umm, you typically maintain sharpness of a high carbon cutting edge with a hardened/heat treated/machined iron file. Especially where a harsher whetstone would have a tendency to erode the material unevenly.

How do you even survive in the 21st century without knowing how to sharpen your sword, bro?

I'm American. We use guns.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

Not knowing what you already know about the initial footwork, if you heard these terms that describe the principal action in isolation - "inner thigh reap" vs "rotating hip throw," would you assume that these techniques are related to each other?

Good point.

Iron can't sharpen f%&ing iron

Yes it can.

It's not only the hardness of a material that is important, but it's shape, mass, the velocity at which it's traveling, and where the force of the swing is being applied.

It really was you that persuaded me!

There was no doubt.

I think part of the reason I like harai so much is because it's very similar to yoko osoto. If you weren't paying attention and saw me hit it, you'd think I just hit a harai. The kuzushi's completely different, though. Yo soto is applied in a similar manner as tai otoshi, though to uke's side as opposed to forward.

 

[doyourkegles22]

I'm American. We use guns.

Amen to that!

 

[RJ Green]

To add to this, harai goshi and uchi mata are very different throws and if you're thinking of them as being related and/or similar in nature, you are doing yourself no favors.

Harai goshi is in essence, a circular upper body throw. People get hung up on the sweeping of the leg, but a harai goshi can be done with minimal blocking/sweeping. The principal action of a harai goshi happens at the hips and the upper body and pivots around a vertical axis.

Uchi mata is more or less a linear lower body throw. In principal, with perfect timing, you can do uchi mata with no upper body contact. With uke in a position of broken balance, feet shoulder width apart, ass out, leaning forward and on his toes, you should be able to hit uchi mata on the basis of leg action alone.

im bass-ackwards here.

as a taller guy i'm usually lifting uke. there's a certain point where the dichotomy in height makes it impractical for me to throw solely with positioning. a lot of my kazushi for the forward throws is pulling uke into and somewhat up and on to me.

so for ken-ken i'll have a lot more distance by virtue of my height, but feel like i have less control and am 'forcing' it.

when i do uchimata or harai, since i lift slightly, the variation comes from where they've ended up on my body - if they're off to my side i can hit uchimata, but once they're behind me or in such a position where harai is 'closer', i'll take that since i can pick up both legs with the reap, blocking the escape as i throw.

i always throw uchimata like i intend to make leg contact, but i never do. if i'm in the right position they load up on the side of my hip and my thigh never enters the equation. i tried to do it more Inoue/Hanegoshi style, but i've had the most success with focusing on kazushi and getting in tight, using my whole body and the pendulum motion instead of just hooking with the leg...

 

[doyourkegles22]

i always throw uchimata like i intend to make leg contact, but i never do. if i'm in the right position they load up on the side of my hip and my thigh never enters the equation. i tried to do it more Inoue/Hanegoshi style, but i've had the most success with focusing on kazushi and getting in tight, using my whole body and the pendulum motion instead of just hooking with the leg...

same

 

[The Karate Man]

Sounds like a load of TMA dweebs playing at MMA. Isn't there somewhere better anywhere near you? Sparring with Kung Fools and Aikidorks won't help you - iron sharpens iron.

If there were any better places to train at, trust me, I would have never walked into the dojo. But I am glad I did. I've added so much to my arsenal that will help my overall game. We still do most of the drills I did back at my old mma gym, we still spar hard, and we have seasoned grapplers and strikers. When I move to Woodville and start training with Texas Punishment Crew, I'll still probably make the 35 minute drive to East Texas Judo Jujitsu. Read my response to Uchi Mata.

Lots of MMA guys have TMA backgrounds, as long as you're sparring hard then I don't think it matters if you learned your roundhouse in a kung fu school vs. a kickboxing class. It doesn't sound like he's doing no touch Aikido BS, it sounds like a bunch of guys who want to get better trading techniques and sparring. Which is one of the best ways to learn MMA IMO.

This is spot on.

You can't completely disregard a martial arts system. Is Kung Fu bullshit? Yes. If I were to train Kung Fu and step in the cage, I'd get my ass kicked 10 times out of 10. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't good techniques that you can take from it, even if it's as simple as a step within a kicking combination.

With the Aikido I'm introduced to, it's mostly wrist locks, takedowns, and submissions. Some of the stuff is gun and knife defense, but that honestly can't be harmful to learn.

I'm not learning the 5 point palm exploding heart technique.

 

[Mcmoon]

If there were any better places to train at, trust me, I would have never walked into the dojo. But I am glad I did. I've added so much to my arsenal that will help my overall game. We still do most of the drills I did back at my old mma gym, we still spar hard, and we have seasoned grapplers and strikers. When I move to Woodville and start training with Texas Punishment Crew, I'll still probably make the 35 minute drive to East Texas Judo Jujitsu. Read my response to Uchi Mata.




This is spot on.

You can't completely disregard a martial arts system. Is Kung Fu bullshit? Yes. If I were to train Kung Fu and step in the cage, I'd get my ass kicked 10 times out of 10. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't good techniques that you can take from it, even if it's as simple as a step within a kicking combination.

With the Aikido I'm introduced to, it's mostly wrist locks, takedowns, and submissions. Some of the stuff is gun and knife defense, but that honestly can't be harmful to learn.

I'm not learning the 5 point palm exploding heart technique.

Not trying to start anything but just a few pages back you said you have been training jiu jitsu for 6 years(I guess you meant aiki jiu jitsu but in no way clarified and one would just assume bjj?) and was questioning having to have the arm across for the triangle and what my experience was like I was wrong. So have you had any formal training in bjj?

 

[The Karate Man]

Not trying to start anything but just a few pages back you said you have been training jiu jitsu for 6 years(I guess you meant aiki jiu jitsu but in no way clarified and one would just assume bjj?) and was questioning having to have the arm across for the triangle and what my experience was like I was wrong. So have you had any formal training in bjj?

No, I have only been training Aikijitsu for like 3-4 months. I'm seasoned in BJJ and Karate; that's what I have been doing for 6 years.

But like I said, I'm going to start training with the Texas Punishment Crew MMA gym when I move in a couple of weeks, and I'm still going to go back to the Aikijitsu dojo every chance I can.

You guys should like that facebook page and follow what we're doing over there. The page hasn't been used in a long time, but I'm going to try to add more content and showcase some of the stuff we're doing.

 

[Einarr]

I'm American. We use guns.

Did you throw your cowboy hat in the air, fire off a brace of pistols, and eat a 3lb Freedom Burger while shouting "YEEEEEEHAAAAW!" after posting this comment?

 

[RJ Green]

Did you throw your cowboy hat in the air, fire off a brace of pistols, and eat a 3lb Freedom Burger while shouting "YEEEEEEHAAAAW!" after posting this comment?

Over here we call that 'lunch'

 

[Einarr]

Over here we call that 'lunch'

Don't you mean . . . Freedom Lunch?

 

[Zankou]

That's just good manners.