Official Judo Thread IX: Banned By The French Edition

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it's like saying drop seoi nage is a back take. like, yeah, if you fuck it up.

you know what breaks my fall during kouchi makikomi? uke.
 
First BJJ tournament I ever fought I hit kouchi makikomi, got my back taken, and got choked out. It's risky to say the least. You can do it successfully without giving up your back, but you can also cartwheel over a guy, grab his waist, and powerbomb him. Doesn't mean it should be your first option. There are a lot of throws I'll try in a BJJ match before kouchi makikomi or any other makikomi.
 
First BJJ tournament I ever fought I hit kouchi makikomi, got my back taken, and got choked out. It's risky to say the least. You can do it successfully without giving up your back, but you can also cartwheel over a guy, grab his waist, and powerbomb him. Doesn't mean it should be your first option. There are a lot of throws I'll try in a BJJ match before kouchi makikomi or any other makikomi.
Not even o soto makikomi?

There's no danger of giving up your back and you land immediately into a literally crushing kesa.
 
I feel ko uchi makikomi is risky as heck in BJJ, and don't use it myself, but there is something fundamentally awesome about a proper torpedo ko uchi. So much force.

Granted, it's a bloody shame when people build their game around makikomi, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its place.
 
Not even o soto makikomi?

There's no danger of giving up your back and you land immediately into a literally crushing kesa.

o soto makikomi doesn't give you head control, so no kesa. Again, it can definitely work, but it wouldn't be my first choice since if you don't hit it right you are risking your back.
 
o soto makikomi doesn't give you head control, so no kesa. Again, it can definitely work, but it wouldn't be my first choice since if you don't hit it right you are risking your back.

Every throw should be practiced as wazaari, instead of ippon score.
That way, you get used to the idea, that you have to continue with newaza. Hence, you will be careful with your landing position.
I dont mind throwing with makikomi , because I transit immediately to pin. Either facing his legs, either with very tight arm control, which I work to head and arm control.
 
Hey Uchi Mata, I'm wondering if you could discuss your transition to BJJ. In particular, did you adapt your Judo game or are you more BJJ style now?

I've been going to BJJ once a week now because of my schedule (not much else). I have been able to submit purples and would say I'm on par with most of them. But the browns have been a large gap.

I thought blue->purple was said to be the largest gap but now am not so sure. It seems like browns are capable at fighting full speed with technical precision, whereas purples do not. Or maybe they train more.

Anyway, I'm trying to make it my goal to tap a brown but not sure how except by just training more. I mostly follow a Judo game: pass, pin, sub (probably brown level). Not so good at guard or back control (blue level).

What would you work on? Thanks.
 
Hey Uchi Mata, I'm wondering if you could discuss your transition to BJJ. In particular, did you adapt your Judo game or are you more BJJ style now?

I've been going to BJJ once a week now because of my schedule (not much else). I have been able to submit purples and would say I'm on par with most of them. But the browns have been a large gap.

I thought blue->purple was said to be the largest gap but now am not so sure. It seems like browns are capable at fighting full speed with technical precision, whereas purples do not. Or maybe they train more.

Anyway, I'm trying to make it my goal to tap a brown but not sure how except by just training more. I mostly follow a Judo game: pass, pin, sub (probably brown level). Not so good at guard or back control (blue level).

What would you work on? Thanks.

I am primarily a BJJ guy now to the extent that I'm primarily anything. I personally think of it all as grappling, and I just try to find the best people around in any style and train with them.

Blue to purple is the biggest gap in terms of technical knowledge, but one thing about brown belt is that quite a few people drop out after purple so the ones who make it to brown are usually very dedicated and very good. I've rolled with some just okay purple belts, but with the exception of guy who were quite a bit older I've never rolled with a brown belt who wasn't really good. As you go up the ranks the quality becomes more consistent for sure.

In terms of what to develop, you can dominate just okay purple belts simply by being aggressive, athletic, and a generally good grappler even if your technique is basic (and in terms of guard passing and subbing from the top, I've never met a Judoka whose technique surpassed the basics unless they'd also trained BJJ). But for brown and black belts, they'll be able to deal with even well applied basics, so I think if you want to hang with brown belts you'd have to devote a lot of time to BJJ. You'll need a fairly diverse passing game to deal with their guards, and while I think you can actually get away with a fairly simple guard game it does need to be sharp. In terms of practicing specific things, I'd say that one of the biggest divides between Judoka with good ne waza and BJJ higher ranks is the ability to pass standing. Because of the rules of Judo it's not something most Judoka do at all, but it's the main way high level BJJ people pass for the most part. So if you want to use your current top heavy game, I'd say learn how to do a few standing passes and work on integrating them. You'll probably also need to improve your submission chains from the top, I've not met too many Judo guys who are good at that but you're rarely going to catch a good brown belt with the first sub you try.

One last thing about purple belts: keep in mind that purple belt takes usually about 5 years to get, so it's equivalent more or less to a shodan in Judo. I think it's a useful analogy because while purple belts do usually have pretty decent technical knowledge, they usually don't have very coherent games unless they compete a lot and they tend to have trouble dealing with people who come at them hard and know what they want to do. I saw that a lot as a purple belt; I competed quite a bit and worked hard on my competition game, and as a result I could dominate most non-competitive purple belts and I never had any trouble on the ground with anyone at Judo, including guys in the top 10 of their weight class in the US. But those same guys would have dominated some of the purple belts I train with who are more recreational, because the Judoka were strong, athletic, and aggressive in a way that recreational BJJ guys just aren't used to and have trouble handling.
 
Thanks Uchi, that sounds about right. I spent the last year or so dropping in, and in that time I figured to learn some passing and how to apply a top game (really just good at kimura and armbar, yoko sankaku). I sometimes can pass browns (rarely, blacks), but you're right it's hard to get a good sub attempt on them.

In a year I learned to tap blues, then purples, but I guess browns will take some work. Although I'm not entirely convinced athleticism reaches a limit here for Judo, because they are the ones training every day and I've rocking a dad bod now.
 
In a year I learned to tap blues, then purples, but I guess browns will take some work. Although I'm not entirely convinced athleticism reaches a limit here for Judo, because they are the ones training every day and I've rocking a dad bod now.

tumblr_inline_npj5s6BO1M1rj31iu_500.gif
 
lol whatever man. you are in brazil, plenty of Judo players strong on the ground there. go find out yourself.
 

Oh please.

He's a judo shodan (in 'Murica that's at least 4-6 years of training) who trained a year in BJJ, and was able to tap blues and purples after said year. That's entirely feasible.




I finally saw the Penne vs. Jedrzejczyk fight, and damn it's nice to have commentators who know about judo. I never realize the gap in knowledge we're usually missing until Rogan takes a break and is subbed by Florini or whoever this Brit team is for UFN 69. Aside from the commentary about the striking (my biggest peeve about Rogan), the grappling insight is ridiculously higher. I forget their names, but they at the very least don't call shit like tai otoshi and seoi nage "hip throws"....

Ronda isn't even the first judoka to be in the UFC. How has he not learned to recognize wtf he's looking at yet?
 
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I am primarily a BJJ guy now to the extent that I'm primarily anything. I personally think of it all as grappling, and I just try to find the best people around in any style and train with them.

Blue to purple is the biggest gap in terms of technical knowledge, but one thing about brown belt is that quite a few people drop out after purple so the ones who make it to brown are usually very dedicated and very good. I've rolled with some just okay purple belts, but with the exception of guy who were quite a bit older I've never rolled with a brown belt who wasn't really good. As you go up the ranks the quality becomes more consistent for sure.

In terms of what to develop, you can dominate just okay purple belts simply by being aggressive, athletic, and a generally good grappler even if your technique is basic (and in terms of guard passing and subbing from the top, I've never met a Judoka whose technique surpassed the basics unless they'd also trained BJJ). But for brown and black belts, they'll be able to deal with even well applied basics, so I think if you want to hang with brown belts you'd have to devote a lot of time to BJJ. You'll need a fairly diverse passing game to deal with their guards, and while I think you can actually get away with a fairly simple guard game it does need to be sharp. In terms of practicing specific things, I'd say that one of the biggest divides between Judoka with good ne waza and BJJ higher ranks is the ability to pass standing. Because of the rules of Judo it's not something most Judoka do at all, but it's the main way high level BJJ people pass for the most part. So if you want to use your current top heavy game, I'd say learn how to do a few standing passes and work on integrating them. You'll probably also need to improve your submission chains from the top, I've not met too many Judo guys who are good at that but you're rarely going to catch a good brown belt with the first sub you try.

One last thing about purple belts: keep in mind that purple belt takes usually about 5 years to get, so it's equivalent more or less to a shodan in Judo. I think it's a useful analogy because while purple belts do usually have pretty decent technical knowledge, they usually don't have very coherent games unless they compete a lot and they tend to have trouble dealing with people who come at them hard and know what they want to do. I saw that a lot as a purple belt; I competed quite a bit and worked hard on my competition game, and as a result I could dominate most non-competitive purple belts and I never had any trouble on the ground with anyone at Judo, including guys in the top 10 of their weight class in the US. But those same guys would have dominated some of the purple belts I train with who are more recreational, because the Judoka were strong, athletic, and aggressive in a way that recreational BJJ guys just aren't used to and have trouble handling.

I would totally agree with your analysis of that from my limited time in BJJ but not all purples I've rolled with have been that good.

Some tie me in knots but I've only been in judo for 6 years and I can tap some purples if I start from on top, so I wouldn't say it's the equivalent of shodan. I will say that, as a club, we do a lot more newaza than most.

My judo coach taps me significantly faster than my black belt BJJ coach for what it's worth.
 
Hey Uchi Mata, I'm wondering if you could discuss your transition to BJJ. In particular, did you adapt your Judo game or are you more BJJ style now?

I've been going to BJJ once a week now because of my schedule (not much else). I have been able to submit purples and would say I'm on par with most of them. But the browns have been a large gap.

I thought blue->purple was said to be the largest gap but now am not so sure. It seems like browns are capable at fighting full speed with technical precision, whereas purples do not. Or maybe they train more.

Anyway, I'm trying to make it my goal to tap a brown but not sure how except by just training more. I mostly follow a Judo game: pass, pin, sub (probably brown level). Not so good at guard or back control (blue level).

What would you work on? Thanks.

Uchi is better than me but I'd say you just need to roll more at your ability. Brown belts have SUCH good mobility inside of their guards, partly because they've got the strength/flexibility in the right spots, but the difference I can feel in the purple-brown transition is the feel the brown belts have developed. They're a lot better at being able to scoot out from under pressure, they're a lot more cognizant of the other options in a scramble, and they're generally past that experimental phase.

a blue/purple belt working an 'exotic' guard is usually still playing around with it or refining it. if a brown belt defaults to a particular guard, especially one of the DLR/x-guards, you know they've been practicing those shame shenanigans for a while.

when i'm going against a black belt or brown belt, i dont' feel like i'm shutting down a multitude of sub attempts or positions, i feel like i'm trying to stop the same subs and sweeps. they're like a goddamn pit bull. once they get a bite, even if it's a half-ass bite, they're gonna hoarf that shit down. you either gotta choke him out or break the death grip and run the hell away.

as a Judo -> BJJ guy, my best advice isn't helpful, but it's to find that balance. you don't have to be ashamed of judo or presh, but be open to new concepts. at the same time, don't feel like you have to *only* do exotic guards or leg locks.

also, don't slow down. rasslers and Judo players keep a hellaciously strenuous pace compared to flow rollers. a lot of BJJ is done so...not lackadaisically...but the whole 'flow' and 'technique' mantras turn into this 'don't use strength' mantra and it's almost lazy. i think it comes from trying to replicate the ease with which a black belt can handle someone, but people misconstrue that as 'he doesn't need that much strength to do that' rather than 'he's practiced that so much it's easy.'

kinda like morote or uchimata or some of those throws that white belts see so much amplitude and oomph out of they think they just need to do it as hard as they can, rather than doing is as correctly as possible.

tldnr - try to drill as accurately as you can in class, smash the fuck out of everyone during open mat
 
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I think you are spot on as well RJ. The purples feel like they are mechanically doing step 1,2,3. Whereas browns feel you out. They've got that Judo feel actually, sensing your balance, even some action-reaction.

I try to practice with varied levels just as I do in Judo. I'm about par with recreational purple. Those who I am athletically superior to (even with dad bod) are no threat to me, but the competitive ones catch me. But, taking a stab at higher belts keeps things interesting.

I think I will keep skipping the exotic guards, but I gotta get better at more positions to attack, learn to transition to back control, and get some good sub chains going.
 
Oh please.

He's a judo shodan (in 'Murica that's at least 4-6 years of training) who trained a year in BJJ, and was able to tap blues and purples after said year. That's entirely feasible.

Thanks. I've got a multiple of those years and my club really drilled newaza though, so it's not typical shodan either.

It took about 10 sessions to tap the blues. I just had to learn how to pass modern guards and then apply a sub from pin.

Purples were a similar story just took a bit longer. They defended subs better, so I had to learn how to open them up and also make sure to apply subs tightly.

It's not really surprising. It really was just me learning how to break a grip for kimura, pulling it up with my chest, get a proper grip, etc. Just correct little details.

I should also say that BJJ was always big in my area, so it's not like I was totally in the dark about it. Also read some BJJ books for my newaza even while training Judo.
 
I think you are spot on as well RJ. The purples feel like they are mechanically doing step 1,2,3. Whereas browns feel you out. They've got that Judo feel actually, sensing your balance, even some action-reaction.

I try to practice with varied levels just as I do in Judo. I'm about par with recreational purple. Those who I am athletically superior to (even with dad bod) are no threat to me, but the competitive ones catch me. But, taking a stab at higher belts keeps things interesting.

I think I will keep skipping the exotic guards, but I gotta get better at more positions to attack, learn to transition to back control, and get some good sub chains going.

Exotic guards really aren't necessary. A good butterfly guard and solid half guard basics are really all you need if you're willing to stand up against anyone who disengages to standing when passing. Watch a bunch of Marcelo Garcia footage if you're interested in how effective a fairly simple guard game can be.
 
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