NPR- Interviews author, Newly Released Documents Detail Traumas Of China's Cultural Revolution

<TrumpWrong1>

Here are your own words (again):

This is just "not true communism" in more words.

Also, this quote from the first page of this thread, one of the first 5 posts actually:






Do you ever get tired of me proving you wrong time and time again?

I will accept your concession via your post of laughing woman gif any time. I'm looking forward to your concession that you lack the brain power to actually refute anything I've said. :cool:

You proved me wrong? Where is it? I can't see it?

I'm not @MadSquabbles500.
 
This thinking kind of skirts the line of an "Appeal to Authority."

If he is right, he is right.

Reputation and field does not make for facts and arguments. (I have no idea and just heard of the fellow.)

I only meant it in the context of @Farmer Br0wn dropping the Peterson clip like he is a grade schooler playing pogs.

Dropping a Peterson clip doesn't just end the discussion.
 
I'm pretty open about how I think Mao was an incompetent boob and that Maoism is an inherently flawed ideology.

However, as I stated before, the rhetoric over his destruction is incredibly exaggerated in the West and ignores many spurious variables. At no point during the Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution were Chinese death rates unusual for their region, which was experiencing incredible famine.

What do you and @Rational Poster , since he gave you a like, think about this quote? A exaggeration?

Sounds like it came out of official archives.


"From the early 1990s he began combing normally closed official archives containing confidential reports of the ravages of the famine, and reading accounts of the official killing of protesters. He found references to cannibalism and interviewed men and women who survived by eating human flesh.

Chinese statistics are always overwhelming, so he helps us to conceptualize what 36 million deaths actually means. It is, he writes, “450 times the number of people killed by the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki” and “greater than the number of people killed in World War I.” It also, he insists, “outstripped the ravages of World War II.” While 40 to 50 million died in that war, it stretched over seven or eight years, while most deaths in the great Chinese famine, he notes, were “concentrated in a six-month period.” The famine occurred neither during a war nor in a period of natural calamity. When mentioned in China, which is rarely, bad weather or Russian treachery are usually blamed for this disaster, and both are knowledgeably dismissed....

....
The most staggering and detailed chapter in the narrative relates what happened in Xinyang Prefecture, in Henan Province. A lush region, it was “the economic engine of the province,” with a population in 1958 of 8.5 million. Mao’s policies had driven the peasants from their individual small holdings; working communally, they were now forced to yield almost everything to the state, either to feed the cities or — crazily — to increase exports. The peasants were allotted enough grain for just a few months. In Xinyang alone over a million people died.


Mao had pronounced that the family, in the new order of collective farming and eating, was no longer necessary. Liu Shaoqi, reliably sycophantic, agreed: “The family is a historically produced phenomenon and will be eliminated.” Grain production plummeted, the communal kitchens collapsed. As yields dived, Zhou Enlai and other leaders, “the falcons and hounds of evil,” assured Mao that agricultural production had in fact soared. Mao himself proclaimed that under the new dispensation yields could be exponentially higher. “Tell the peasants to resume eating chaff and herbs for half the year,” he said, “and after some hardship for one or two or three years things will turn around.”
 
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While that may be true, the argument is that communism creates a system where its more likely that someone like that comes to power.

If there is just one party, just one will of "the people," having any kind of argument to the contrary does seem rather... anti-revolutionary.

You wouldn't happen to be against the will of the people, would you?
 
What do you and @Rational Poster , since he gave you a like, think about this quote? A exaggeration?

"From the early 1990s he began combing normally closed official archives containing confidential reports of the ravages of the famine, and reading accounts of the official killing of protesters. He found references to cannibalism and interviewed men and women who survived by eating human flesh.

Chinese statistics are always overwhelming, so he helps us to conceptualize what 36 million deaths actually means. It is, he writes, “450 times the number of people killed by the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki” and “greater than the number of people killed in World War I.” It also, he insists, “outstripped the ravages of World War II.” While 40 to 50 million died in that war, it stretched over seven or eight years, while most deaths in the great Chinese famine, he notes, were “concentrated in a six-month period.” The famine occurred neither during a war nor in a period of natural calamity. When mentioned in China, which is rarely, bad weather or Russian treachery are usually blamed for this disaster, and both are knowledgeably dismissed....

....
The most staggering and detailed chapter in the narrative relates what happened in Xinyang Prefecture, in Henan Province. A lush region, it was “the economic engine of the province,” with a population in 1958 of 8.5 million. Mao’s policies had driven the peasants from their individual small holdings; working communally, they were now forced to yield almost everything to the state, either to feed the cities or — crazily — to increase exports. The peasants were allotted enough grain for just a few months. In Xinyang alone over a million people died.


Mao had pronounced that the family, in the new order of collective farming and eating, was no longer necessary. Liu Shaoqi, reliably sycophantic, agreed: “The family is a historically produced phenomenon and will be eliminated.” Grain production plummeted, the communal kitchens collapsed. As yields dived, Zhou Enlai and other leaders, “the falcons and hounds of evil,” assured Mao that agricultural production had in fact soared. Mao himself proclaimed that under the new dispensation yields could be exponentially higher. “Tell the peasants to resume eating chaff and herbs for half the year,” he said, “and after some hardship for one or two or three years things will turn around.”

I know you'd prefer me to be President of the WR, but it was @HomerThompson who liked that not me.

I'll respond anyway, my thoughts are pretty fluid right now.

That quotation is very hyperbolic for no real reason, especially in the middle parts. It's likely very close to accurate however.

It's evidence of a sociopath in power though, not the failure of communism. Don't take this as me condoning communism or saying it would have succeeded under different circumstances. The idea that democracy and capitalism is somehow immune to these sorts of characters just because of our preferred economic and government system is just fucking stupid and dangerous.

You would think a group of people so enamored with the fake news culture and fear of the deep state wouldn't suck so softly on the cock of capitalist propaganda.
 
What do you and @Rational Poster , since he gave you a like, think about this quote? A exaggeration?

"From the early 1990s he began combing normally closed official archives containing confidential reports of the ravages of the famine, and reading accounts of the official killing of protesters. He found references to cannibalism and interviewed men and women who survived by eating human flesh.

Chinese statistics are always overwhelming, so he helps us to conceptualize what 36 million deaths actually means. It is, he writes, “450 times the number of people killed by the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki” and “greater than the number of people killed in World War I.” It also, he insists, “outstripped the ravages of World War II.” While 40 to 50 million died in that war, it stretched over seven or eight years, while most deaths in the great Chinese famine, he notes, were “concentrated in a six-month period.” The famine occurred neither during a war nor in a period of natural calamity. When mentioned in China, which is rarely, bad weather or Russian treachery are usually blamed for this disaster, and both are knowledgeably dismissed....

....
The most staggering and detailed chapter in the narrative relates what happened in Xinyang Prefecture, in Henan Province. A lush region, it was “the economic engine of the province,” with a population in 1958 of 8.5 million. Mao’s policies had driven the peasants from their individual small holdings; working communally, they were now forced to yield almost everything to the state, either to feed the cities or — crazily — to increase exports. The peasants were allotted enough grain for just a few months. In Xinyang alone over a million people died.


Mao had pronounced that the family, in the new order of collective farming and eating, was no longer necessary. Liu Shaoqi, reliably sycophantic, agreed: “The family is a historically produced phenomenon and will be eliminated.” Grain production plummeted, the communal kitchens collapsed. As yields dived, Zhou Enlai and other leaders, “the falcons and hounds of evil,” assured Mao that agricultural production had in fact soared. Mao himself proclaimed that under the new dispensation yields could be exponentially higher. “Tell the peasants to resume eating chaff and herbs for half the year,” he said, “and after some hardship for one or two or three years things will turn around.”

I have no problems with them. My objections are, again, that the narrative itself is just a chain of anecdotes that are not properly contextualized, nor do they sufficiently mention the spurious variables for loss of life.

As I said earlier, China was an agrarian country experiencing famine, and, while Mao's policies aggravated and shifted the burden of the famine, they were not all that meaningfully contributory to death resulting from it, as can be evidenced by the fact that throughout that period, China's death rates were lower than its neighbors. And the horrifying chaos of the Cultural Revolution, perhaps once properly financed, resulted in the most rapid increase in life expectancy in any country in history. That is, in 1949 Chinese life expectancy was a dismal 37.5 years old. By 1980, it was almost twice that.

I have no intent towards disputing any of the individual events cited by the author or by you.
 
I know you'd prefer me to be President of the WR, but it was @HomerThompson who liked that not me.

I'll respond anyway, my thoughts are pretty fluid right now.

That quotation is very hyperbolic for no real reason, especially in the middle parts. It's likely very close to accurate however.

It's evidence of a sociopath in power though, not the failure of communism. Don't take this as me condoning communism or saying it would have succeeded under different circumstances. The idea that democracy and capitalism is somehow immune to these sorts of characters just because of our preferred economic and government system is just fucking stupid and dangerous.

You would think a group of people so enamored with the fake news culture and fear of the deep state wouldn't suck so softly on the cock of capitalist propaganda.

What part is hyperbolic for no reason specifically?
 
I have no problems with them. My objections are, again, that the narrative itself is just a chain of anecdotes that are not properly contextualized, nor do they sufficiently mention the spurious variables for loss of life.

As I said earlier, China was an agrarian country experiencing famine, and, while Mao's policies aggravated and shifted the burden of the famine, they were not all that meaningfully contributory to death resulting from it, as can be evidenced by the fact that throughout that period, China's death rates were lower than its neighbors. And the horrifying chaos of the Cultural Revolution, perhaps once properly financed, resulted in the most rapid increase in life expectancy in any country in history. That is, in 1949 Chinese life expectancy was a dismal 37.5 years old. By 1980, it was almost twice that.

I have no intent towards disputing any of the individual events cited by the author or by you.

So you feel Yang would have a more even hand than Frank Dikötte according to your other post? What would drive Dikotte to exaggerate?
 
What part is hyperbolic for no reason specifically?

Stuff like this.

“450 times the number of people killed by the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki” and “greater than the number of people killed in World War I.” It also, he insists, “outstripped the ravages of World War II.”


I don't need it flavored up to be more scary or make the point. I can understand big numbers. Give me the raw figures.

450 times Nagasaki? Like that's common knowledge? Why is he making me do unnecessary math and research to prove a point that is proved perfectly enough by just laying out the raw figures and presenting the real anecdotes of atrocity?
 
Stuff like this.

“450 times the number of people killed by the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki” and “greater than the number of people killed in World War I.” It also, he insists, “outstripped the ravages of World War II.”


I don't need it flavored up to be more scary or make the point. I can understand big numbers. Give me the raw figures.

450 times Nagasaki? Like that's common knowledge? Why is he making me do unnecessary math and research to prove a point that is proved perfectly enough by just laying out the raw figures and presenting the real anecdotes of atrocity?

People have vivid images of the destruction and death of Nagasaki-ww2 . It actually brings a perspective that is difficult to grasp. Maybe he actually cares about the Chinese people that perished and it's more than just a number to him.
 
So you feel Yang would have a more even hand than Frank Dikötte according to your other post? What would drive Dikotte to exaggerate?

You don't seem to understand. I'm not saying Dikotter exaggerates: I'm saying he's presenting a long string of scary anecdotes instead of telling a comprehensive story. It makes for high book sales, but not a whole lot of intellectual honesty and doesn't promote a great deal of historical fluency.

It's like if someone wrote a book solely documenting instances of war crimes committed against Confederate soldier in Union camps: it could be 100% factual, but would be misleading in leaving out the details of the surround war, etc.
 
People have vivid images of the destruction and death of Nagasaki-ww2 . It actually brings a perspective that is difficult to grasp. Maybe he actually cares about the Chinese people that perished and it's more than just a number to him.

Did you miss the bit where I stated the anecdotes of actual atrocity would suffice?

Personally, I'd rather be disintegrated in a nuclear blast than enslaved on a rice paddy and starved to near death and start eating my own children.

He's making an unnecessary appeal to emotion.
 
Stuff like this.

“450 times the number of people killed by the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki” and “greater than the number of people killed in World War I.” It also, he insists, “outstripped the ravages of World War II.”


I don't need it flavored up to be more scary or make the point. I can understand big numbers. Give me the raw figures.

450 times Nagasaki? Like that's common knowledge? Why is he making me do unnecessary math and research to prove a point that is proved perfectly enough by just laying out the raw figures and presenting the real anecdotes of atrocity?

Also it challenges the idea that loosing that many people in such a short time because of a natural famine is ridiculous and un-substantiated.
 
You don't seem to understand. I'm not saying Dikotter exaggerates: I'm saying he's presenting a long string of scary anecdotes instead of telling a comprehensive story. It makes for high book sales, but not a whole lot of intellectual honesty and doesn't promote a great deal of historical fluency.

It's like if someone wrote a book solely documenting instances of war crimes committed against Confederate soldier in Union camps: it could be 100% factual, but would be misleading in leaving out the details of the surround war, etc.
Narrow historical focus to drive a narrative?

Why I never!
 
Also it challenges the idea that loosing that many people in such a short time because of a natural famine is ridiculous and un-substantiated.

No it doesn't, he's just pulling on your heart strings by referencing events that are more popularly familiar that are remembered with a great amount of reverence by most people.
 
Narrow historical focus to drive a narrative?

Why I never!

Well, to be fair, there is definitely a need for that in many or most cases. Like, say, focusing on Allied war crimes or on abuses by the Red Army in the Second World.

However, the overarching perception of that period by Westerners is already within that narrow historical magnification, so all that narrative does it perpetuate a stunted understanding of the events.
 
Well, to be fair, there is definitely a need for that in many or most cases. Like, say, focusing on Allied war crimes or on abuses by the Red Army in the Second World.

However, the overarching perception of that period by Westerners is already within that narrow historical magnification, so all that narrative does it perpetuate a stunted understanding of the events.




"From the early 1990s he began combing normally closed official archives containing confidential reports of the ravages of the famine, and reading accounts of the official killing of protesters. He found references to cannibalism and interviewed men and women who survived by eating human flesh.

Chinese statistics are always overwhelming, so he helps us to conceptualize what 36 million deaths actually means. It is, he writes, “450 times the number of people killed by the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki” and “greater than the number of people killed in World War I.” It also, he insists, “outstripped the ravages of World War II.” While 40 to 50 million died in that war, it stretched over seven or eight years, while most deaths in the great Chinese famine, he notes, were “concentrated in a six-month period.” The famine occurred neither during a war nor in a period of natural calamity. When mentioned in China, which is rarely, bad weather or Russian treachery are usually blamed for this disaster, and both are knowledgeably dismissed....

....
The most staggering and detailed chapter in the narrative relates what happened in Xinyang Prefecture, in Henan Province. A lush region, it was “the economic engine of the province,” with a population in 1958 of 8.5 million. Mao’s policies had driven the peasants from their individual small holdings; working communally, they were now forced to yield almost everything to the state, either to feed the cities or — crazily — to increase exports. The peasants were allotted enough grain for just a few months. In Xinyang alone over a million people died.


Mao had pronounced that the family, in the new order of collective farming and eating, was no longer necessary. Liu Shaoqi, reliably sycophantic, agreed: “The family is a historically produced phenomenon and will be eliminated.” Grain production plummeted, the communal kitchens collapsed. As yields dived, Zhou Enlai and other leaders, “the falcons and hounds of evil,” assured Mao that agricultural production had in fact soared. Mao himself proclaimed that under the new dispensation yields could be exponentially higher. “Tell the peasants to resume eating chaff and herbs for half the year,” he said, “and after some hardship for one or two or three years things will turn around.”



I'm not sure what makes you, @Rational Poster and @HomerThompson think this quote has to be is some narrow western view of these events. Why can't it just be actual history? I don't understand the motives.

It's a quote by Yang Jisheng author of Tombstone.
He should know what he's talking about, he was there and has deep regrets.-
"When Mao was provided with a list of slogans for his approval, he personally added one: ‘Long Live Chairman Mao.’ ” Two years ago, in an interview with the journalist Ian Johnson, Yang remarked that he views the famine “as part of the totalitarian system that China had at the time. The chief culprit was Mao.”


Unnatural Disaster

‘Tombstone: The Great Chinese Famine, 1958-1962,’ by Yang Jisheng

In the summer of 1962, China’s president, Liu Shaoqi, warned Mao Zedong that “history will record the role you and I played in the starvation of so many people, and the cannibalism will also be memorialized!” Liu had visited Hunan, his home province as well as Mao’s, where almost a million people died of hunger. Some of the survivors had eaten dead bodies or had killed and eaten their comrades. In “Tombstone,” an eye-opening study of the worst famine in history, Yang Jisheng concludes that 36 million Chinese starved to death in the years between 1958 and 1962, while 40 million others failed to be born, which means that “China’s total population loss during the Great Famine then comes to 76 million.”

There are good earlier studies of the famine and one excellent recent one, “Mao’s Great Famine” by Frank Dikötter, but Yang’s is significant because he lives in China and is boldly unsparing. Mao’s rule, he writes, “became a secular theocracy. . . . Divergence from Mao’s views was heresy. . . . Dread and falsehood were thus both the result and the lifeblood of totalitarianism.” This political system, he argues, “caused the degeneration of the national character of the Chinese people.”

Yang, who was born in 1940, is a well-known veteran journalist and a Communist Party member. Before I quote the following sentence, remember that a huge portrait of Chairman Mao still hangs over the main gate into Beijing’s Forbidden City and can be seen from every corner of Tiananmen Square, where his embalmed body lies in an elaborate mausoleum. Despite this continued public veneration, Yang looks squarely at the real chairman: “In power, Mao became immersed in China’s traditional monarchal culture and Lenin and Stalin’s ‘dictatorship of the proletariat.’ . . . When Mao was provided with a list of slogans for his approval, he personally added one: ‘Long Live Chairman Mao.’ ” Two years ago, in an interview with the journalist Ian Johnson, Yang remarked that he views the famine “as part of the totalitarian system that China had at the time. The chief culprit was Mao.”
 
"From the early 1990s he began combing normally closed official archives containing confidential reports of the ravages of the famine, and reading accounts of the official killing of protesters. He found references to cannibalism and interviewed men and women who survived by eating human flesh.

Chinese statistics are always overwhelming, so he helps us to conceptualize what 36 million deaths actually means. It is, he writes, “450 times the number of people killed by the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki” and “greater than the number of people killed in World War I.” It also, he insists, “outstripped the ravages of World War II.” While 40 to 50 million died in that war, it stretched over seven or eight years, while most deaths in the great Chinese famine, he notes, were “concentrated in a six-month period.” The famine occurred neither during a war nor in a period of natural calamity. When mentioned in China, which is rarely, bad weather or Russian treachery are usually blamed for this disaster, and both are knowledgeably dismissed....

....
The most staggering and detailed chapter in the narrative relates what happened in Xinyang Prefecture, in Henan Province. A lush region, it was “the economic engine of the province,” with a population in 1958 of 8.5 million. Mao’s policies had driven the peasants from their individual small holdings; working communally, they were now forced to yield almost everything to the state, either to feed the cities or — crazily — to increase exports. The peasants were allotted enough grain for just a few months. In Xinyang alone over a million people died.


Mao had pronounced that the family, in the new order of collective farming and eating, was no longer necessary. Liu Shaoqi, reliably sycophantic, agreed: “The family is a historically produced phenomenon and will be eliminated.” Grain production plummeted, the communal kitchens collapsed. As yields dived, Zhou Enlai and other leaders, “the falcons and hounds of evil,” assured Mao that agricultural production had in fact soared. Mao himself proclaimed that under the new dispensation yields could be exponentially higher. “Tell the peasants to resume eating chaff and herbs for half the year,” he said, “and after some hardship for one or two or three years things will turn around.”



I'm not sure what makes you, @Rational Poster and @HomerThompson think this quote has to be is some narrow western view of these events. Why can't it just be actual history? I don't understand the motives.

It's a quote by Yang Jisheng author of Tombstone.
He should know what he's talking about, he was there and has deep regrets.-
"When Mao was provided with a list of slogans for his approval, he personally added one: ‘Long Live Chairman Mao.’ ” Two years ago, in an interview with the journalist Ian Johnson, Yang remarked that he views the famine “as part of the totalitarian system that China had at the time. The chief culprit was Mao.”


Unnatural Disaster

‘Tombstone: The Great Chinese Famine, 1958-1962,’ by Yang Jisheng

In the summer of 1962, China’s president, Liu Shaoqi, warned Mao Zedong that “history will record the role you and I played in the starvation of so many people, and the cannibalism will also be memorialized!” Liu had visited Hunan, his home province as well as Mao’s, where almost a million people died of hunger. Some of the survivors had eaten dead bodies or had killed and eaten their comrades. In “Tombstone,” an eye-opening study of the worst famine in history, Yang Jisheng concludes that 36 million Chinese starved to death in the years between 1958 and 1962, while 40 million others failed to be born, which means that “China’s total population loss during the Great Famine then comes to 76 million.”

There are good earlier studies of the famine and one excellent recent one, “Mao’s Great Famine” by Frank Dikötter, but Yang’s is significant because he lives in China and is boldly unsparing. Mao’s rule, he writes, “became a secular theocracy. . . . Divergence from Mao’s views was heresy. . . . Dread and falsehood were thus both the result and the lifeblood of totalitarianism.” This political system, he argues, “caused the degeneration of the national character of the Chinese people.”

Yang, who was born in 1940, is a well-known veteran journalist and a Communist Party member. Before I quote the following sentence, remember that a huge portrait of Chairman Mao still hangs over the main gate into Beijing’s Forbidden City and can be seen from every corner of Tiananmen Square, where his embalmed body lies in an elaborate mausoleum. Despite this continued public veneration, Yang looks squarely at the real chairman: “In power, Mao became immersed in China’s traditional monarchal culture and Lenin and Stalin’s ‘dictatorship of the proletariat.’ . . . When Mao was provided with a list of slogans for his approval, he personally added one: ‘Long Live Chairman Mao.’ ” Two years ago, in an interview with the journalist Ian Johnson, Yang remarked that he views the famine “as part of the totalitarian system that China had at the time. The chief culprit was Mao.”

I'm not sure why you keep lumping us all together like we all disagree with you the same way or are even making the same arguments here.

It's a bit obnoxious and go fuck yourself.
 
I'm not sure why you keep lumping us all together like we all disagree with you the same way or are even making the same arguments here.

It's a bit obnoxious and go fuck yourself.

Lol, whatever you need to tell yourself.
 
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