Non steroid alternatives (ostarine mk2866 talk)

[Phlog]

2 weeks, I'm only running 10mg before bed, recovery is better, sleep is better, just get a little hungry but it's not a problem as I am usually asleep.....

If I were doing it it would be at 8.3mg 3/day. I Might drop down to lower but no theoretical negatives so far. I'd probably be running Osta at same time.

 

[William Huggins]

If I were doing it it would be at 8.3mg 3/day. I Might drop down to lower but no theoretical negatives so far. I'd probably be running Osta at same time.

Have you had a read of the research papers? It seems to have a half life of about 24 hours? I think, from the things I remember it might be better to take a lower dosage.

 

[Phlog]

Have you had a read of the research papers? It seems to have a half life of about 24 hours? I think, from the things I remember it might be better to take a lower dosage.

I've read some stuff about spikes of igf 1 after taking, if that's the case spreading it across the day would create better results.

10mg seems to be entry level, after 25mg there seems to be less increase of effect reported. Also it's effectiveness is dependent on your size and age, bigger and older needing more.

Ben Greenfield seems to be a pretty trustable source and suggests 25mg dosed at 12.5mg 2/day.

I'm a big guy and nearly 40 soo...

Although I'm tempted to drop the dose to make it that much cheaper.

 

[Phlog]

Have you had a read of the research papers? It seems to have a half life of about 24 hours? I think, from the things I remember it might be better to take a lower dosage.

Tried the big dose before bed and am converted because of the sleep quality. That was blissful.

 

[William Huggins]

Tried the big dose before bed and am converted because of the sleep quality. That was blissful.

It helps with the hunger pains too.......

 

[Gaige]

mb ok

 

[Mozart]

Hey guys, I wanted to ask if Ostarine could help with shoulder impingement problems? At this point both of my shoulders are impinged and no matter how many corrective exercises and massages I've done (over the course of 4 months) nothing seems to work. I am hoping that a healing SARM stack could help, maybe Ostarine + MK-677 + LGD-4033. What do you think?

 

[Phlog]

Hey guys, I wanted to ask if Ostarine could help with shoulder impingement problems? At this point both of my shoulders are impinged and no matter how many corrective exercises and massages I've done (over the course of 4 months) nothing seems to work. I am hoping that a healing SARM stack could help, maybe Ostarine + MK-677 + LGD-4033. What do you think?

I've not found that the healing properties of those things are pronounced. They may assist a little but it's no panacea.

Are you seeing a physiotherapist?

 

[Mozart]

I was hoping your experience would be different... at this point, both of my shoulders are impinged and both my knees are inflamed and I have around 2-3 months to get them healed. After reading all the positive comments about these SARMs’ healing abilities I thought this would be the deal...

I am not seeing a physio at the moment because I will be moving to a brand new city in 2-3 weeks from now. I have been seing one for 2 months and it has improved the condition, but still VERY FAR from 100%...

 

[William Huggins]

I was hoping your experience would be different... at this point, both of my shoulders are impinged and both my knees are inflamed and I have around 2-3 months to get them healed. After reading all the positive comments about these SARMs’ healing abilities I thought this would be the deal...

I am not seeing a physio at the moment because I will be moving to a brand new city in 2-3 weeks from now. I have been seing one for 2 months and it has improved the condition, but still VERY FAR from 100%...

Curcumin with Piperine and BPC 157, check your psoas muscles aren't causing this problem.



It can cause you issues with your shoulders and hips which can show up in knee pain as well.

 

[Phlog]

I was hoping your experience would be different... at this point, both of my shoulders are impinged and both my knees are inflamed and I have around 2-3 months to get them healed. After reading all the positive comments about these SARMs’ healing abilities I thought this would be the deal...

I am not seeing a physio at the moment because I will be moving to a brand new city in 2-3 weeks from now. I have been seing one for 2 months and it has improved the condition, but still VERY FAR from 100%...

My experience has been that the supps help like 10%.

The thing that fixed my problems is the identification of the actual cause which for me was a muscle imbalance that several physios did not identify. You may need surgery if the impingement is due to structure reasons.

I'd not advise to do sarms or not, I'd just caution they'll only compliment what you're doing already.

 

[Mozart]

My experience has been that the supps help like 10%.

The thing that fixed my problems is the identification of the actual cause which for me was a muscle imbalance that several physios did not identify. You may need surgery if the impingement is due to structure reasons.

I'd not advise to do sarms or not, I'd just caution they'll only compliment what you're doing already.

Thank you for the detailed replies! Well, I have got an xray done on one of my shoulders and there are no bone spurs or anything similar so I don’t think that’s the problem.

Unfortunately, the doc was not able to pinpoint what cause the impingement in the first place but in my opinion it could have been the following:

1. I did not drink enough water these months, I am dehydrated.
2. I came back to working out after a back injury and I started training too heavy too quickly.
3. I have an anterior pelvic tilt and rounded shoulders. Perhaps my body has no balance and that’s what lead both shoulders to be impinged.

Please, let me know if any of these actually make any sense. I would love to combine the SARM stack with some corrective exercises to make sure I get rid of this problem completely, I just don’t know what the hell to do...

 

[Phlog]

Thank you for the detailed replies! Well, I have got an xray done on one of my shoulders and there are no bone spurs or anything similar so I don’t think that’s the problem.

Unfortunately, the doc was not able to pinpoint what cause the impingement in the first place but in my opinion it could have been the following:

1. I did not drink enough water these months, I am dehydrated.
2. I came back to working out after a back injury and I started training too heavy too quickly.
3. I have an anterior pelvic tilt and rounded shoulders. Perhaps my body has no balance and that’s what lead both shoulders to be impinged.

Please, let me know if any of these actually make any sense. I would love to combine the SARM stack with some corrective exercises to make sure I get rid of this problem completely, I just don’t know what the hell to do...

@Sano might have some ideas but I know little about body mechanics, entry level amateur. You might want to pay a sports physio to look at it. You get what you pay for.

 

[Sano]

Curcumin with Piperine and BPC 157, check your psoas muscles aren't causing this problem.



It can cause you issues with your shoulders and hips which can show up in knee pain as well.

While some supplements have shown to be helpful for some people, both in research and anecdotally, it's not a magic formula. Curcumin have some proven anti-inflammatory effects, but Piperine does not have evidence to support it in human trials, as far as I aware. With that, they can help as an addition. Ultimately your lifestyle and diet choices are more important.

Thank you for the detailed replies! Well, I have got an xray done on one of my shoulders and there are no bone spurs or anything similar so I don’t think that’s the problem.

Unfortunately, the doc was not able to pinpoint what cause the impingement in the first place but in my opinion it could have been the following:

1. I did not drink enough water these months, I am dehydrated.
2. I came back to working out after a back injury and I started training too heavy too quickly.
3. I have an anterior pelvic tilt and rounded shoulders. Perhaps my body has no balance and that’s what lead both shoulders to be impinged.

Please, let me know if any of these actually make any sense. I would love to combine the SARM stack with some corrective exercises to make sure I get rid of this problem completely, I just don’t know what the hell to do...

First to touch on the diet/supplement thing. Changing your diet around to a more anti-inflammatory one (I realise this is a very broad and often overused and misleading term) is important. Generally that means more healthy fats (advocado, virgin olive oil, wallnuts, eggs), more fish (there's really good evidence for DHA in especially salmon being anti-inflammatory) more cruciferious vegetables, less refined sugar, alchohol i moderation and less starch (or keep it more towards brown rice, sweet potatoes and so on). There's also individual differences. For some people, moving away from beans (which are high in lectins that can cause inflammation for SOME) can help. Vegetables from the nightshade family like tomatoes and pebbers and some fruits (besides bananas) can trigger allergies in SOME as well, which can lead to greater systemic inflammation. Again, we differ as individuals. The core tenets are still worth following. Also, I personally like using tumeric (which is what curcumin is made from), garlic and cumin for cooking which all have anti-inflammatory properties.

Then comes the mental state. Relaxing, giving your brain rest, doing de-stressing activities and finding moments where you can unplug and unwind without having to think about anything is an undervalued tool. Physical and mental stress correlates with sympathetic activity of the nervous system, which in turn increases systemic inflammation in the body. Nevermind all the countless of other negative effects prolonged stress have on neurological, physiological and psychological health. Same with countless hours of screen time. So, use brain and body rest and relaxation as a tool.

Now, in regards to your physical activity, posture and your specific questions.

1. I don't know of any mechanism which being dehydrated would create prolonged impingement symptoms. Obviously it's important to be somewhat hydrated, but I don't think this should be attributed to your issue. Cramping would be another matter.
2. Yes, managing volume and load is KEY in any overuse pathology, which is what functional impingement is (you say the MRI shows no spurs). This is where you dial your training back, start with less weight, less reps and work your way back without pain. Do different exercises that do not hurt, and focus on form and technique. Feel free to post them here if you are doubtful about a certain technical issue and how that relates to your shoulder positioning and strain.
3. Yes, posture CAN have an effect on the joint translations/movements and peri-articular structures which can be overly stressed or irritated. An anterior tilt MIGHT play into that, but it might not. While on an individual basis working with posture can sometimes help improve biomechanics and in turn symptoms, at large there is no high quality evidence to suggest that a specific posture necessarily creates pain. With that, it's always a good idea to have a good full body warmup, do quality dynamic and static stretching and to improve your muscle balance and function. Meaning in your case, do exercises that targets your posterior chain in various ways.

If I had you infront of me, saw you do what you do and could see what was going on, I could make something specific for you. As that is not possible, the above are general guidelines. If I was you, I would seek out a good muscoloskeletal physio that can help you out (some are better than others).

 

[Phlog]

While some supplements have shown to be helpful for some people, both in research and anecdotally, it's not a magic formula. Curcumin have some proven anti-inflammatory effects, but Piperine does not have evidence to support it in human trials, as far as I aware. With that, they can help as an addition. Ultimately your lifestyle and diet choices are more important.


First to touch on the diet/supplement thing. Changing your diet around to a more anti-inflammatory one (I realise this is a very broad and often overused and misleading term) is important. Generally that means more healthy fats (advocado, virgin olive oil, wallnuts, eggs), more fish (there's really good evidence for DHA in especially salmon being anti-inflammatory) more cruciferious vegetables, less refined sugar, alchohol i moderation and less starch (or keep it more towards brown rice, sweet potatoes and so on). There's also individual differences. For some people, moving away from beans (which are high in lectins that can cause inflammation for SOME) can help. Vegetables from the nightshade family like tomatoes and pebbers and some fruits (besides bananas) can trigger allergies in SOME as well, which can lead to greater systemic inflammation. Again, we differ as individuals. The core tenets are still worth following which I layed out further up. I also like using tumeric (which is what curcumin is made from), garlic and cumin for cooking which also has anti-inflammatory properties.

Then comes the mental state. Relaxing, giving your brain rest, doing de-stressing activities and finding moments where you can unplug and unwind without having to think about anything is an undervalued tool. Physical and mental stress correlates with sympathetic activity of the nervous system, which in turn increases systemic inflammation in the body. Nevermind all the countless of other negative effects prolonged stress have on neurological, physiological and psychological health. Same with countless hours of screen time. So, use brain and body rest and relaxation as a tool.

Now, in regards to your physical activity, posture and your specific questions.

1. I don't know of any mechanism which being dehydrated would create prolonged impingement symptoms. Obviously it's important to be somewhat hydrated, but I don't think this should be attributed to your issue. Cramping would be another matter.
2. Yes, managing volume and load is KEY in any overuse pathology, which is what functional impingement is (you say the MRI shows no spurs). This is where you dial your training back, start with less weight, less reps and work your way back without pain. Do different exercises that do not hurt, and focus on form and technique. Feel free to post them here if you are doubtful about a certain technical issue and how that relates to your shoulder positioning and strain.
3. Yes, posture CAN have an effect on the joint translations/movements and peri-articular structures which can be overly stressed or irritated. An anterior tilt MIGHT play into that, but it might not. While on an individual basis working with posture can sometimes help improve biomechanics and in turn symptoms, at large there is no high quality evidence to suggest that a specific posture necessarily creates pain. With that, it's always a good idea to have a good full body warmup, do quality dynamic and static stretching and to improve your muscle balance and function. Meaning in your case, do exercises that targets your posterior chain in various ways.

If I had you infront of me, saw you do what you do and could see what was going on, I could make something specific for you. As that is not possible, the above are general guidelines. If I was you, I would seek out a good muscoloskeletal physio that can help you out (some are better than others).

 

[William Huggins]

While some supplements have shown to be helpful for some people, both in research and anecdotally, it's not a magic formula. Curcumin have some proven anti-inflammatory effects, but Piperine does not have evidence to support it in human trials, as far as I aware. With that, they can help as an addition. Ultimately your lifestyle and diet choices are more important.


First to touch on the diet/supplement thing. Changing your diet around to a more anti-inflammatory one (I realise this is a very broad and often overused and misleading term) is important. Generally that means more healthy fats (advocado, virgin olive oil, wallnuts, eggs), more fish (there's really good evidence for DHA in especially salmon being anti-inflammatory) more cruciferious vegetables, less refined sugar, alchohol i moderation and less starch (or keep it more towards brown rice, sweet potatoes and so on). There's also individual differences. For some people, moving away from beans (which are high in lectins that can cause inflammation for SOME) can help. Vegetables from the nightshade family like tomatoes and pebbers and some fruits (besides bananas) can trigger allergies in SOME as well, which can lead to greater systemic inflammation. Again, we differ as individuals. The core tenets are still worth following. Also, I personally like using tumeric (which is what curcumin is made from), garlic and cumin for cooking which all have anti-inflammatory properties.

Then comes the mental state. Relaxing, giving your brain rest, doing de-stressing activities and finding moments where you can unplug and unwind without having to think about anything is an undervalued tool. Physical and mental stress correlates with sympathetic activity of the nervous system, which in turn increases systemic inflammation in the body. Nevermind all the countless of other negative effects prolonged stress have on neurological, physiological and psychological health. Same with countless hours of screen time. So, use brain and body rest and relaxation as a tool.

Now, in regards to your physical activity, posture and your specific questions.

1. I don't know of any mechanism which being dehydrated would create prolonged impingement symptoms. Obviously it's important to be somewhat hydrated, but I don't think this should be attributed to your issue. Cramping would be another matter.
2. Yes, managing volume and load is KEY in any overuse pathology, which is what functional impingement is (you say the MRI shows no spurs). This is where you dial your training back, start with less weight, less reps and work your way back without pain. Do different exercises that do not hurt, and focus on form and technique. Feel free to post them here if you are doubtful about a certain technical issue and how that relates to your shoulder positioning and strain.
3. Yes, posture CAN have an effect on the joint translations/movements and peri-articular structures which can be overly stressed or irritated. An anterior tilt MIGHT play into that, but it might not. While on an individual basis working with posture can sometimes help improve biomechanics and in turn symptoms, at large there is no high quality evidence to suggest that a specific posture necessarily creates pain. With that, it's always a good idea to have a good full body warmup, do quality dynamic and static stretching and to improve your muscle balance and function. Meaning in your case, do exercises that targets your posterior chain in various ways.

If I had you infront of me, saw you do what you do and could see what was going on, I could make something specific for you. As that is not possible, the above are general guidelines. If I was you, I would seek out a good muscoloskeletal physio that can help you out (some are better than others).

Curcumin has very poor bioavailability, Piperine is needed to increase bioavailability, turmeric only contains about 2% curcumin by weight.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9619120/

You could go down the nanoparticle curcumin route but it's cheaper just to make your own curcumin and piperine capsules..........

 

[Sano]

Curcumin has very poor bioavailability, Piperine is needed to increase bioavailability, turmeric only contains about 2% curcumin by weight.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9619120/

You could go down the nanoparticle curcumin route but it's cheaper just to make your own curcumin and piperine capsules..........

You should probably find a newer source, but yeah you're right black pepper helps with absorbtion of Curcumin. I was talking about BPC 157 and human trials, I wrote Piperine by a mistake. Turmeric contains a small amount of Curcumin compared to the extract yes, but bioavailiability and quantity changes from extracts to foods. I like using real spices and only extracts for a few select things. In regards to Curcumin extract (with piperine) a meta-analysis found a mean decrease of 2 on pain using VAS score (0-10) compared to controls and 15 on WOMAC pain scores (0-100). That's really great, on par with some pain killers, but again it only improves pain to a certain extent. There's a few other things to consider. There's a relatively small amount of studies included, there were moderate risk of bias in some of them, they are on an older population with osteoarthritis and these are averages. Some people respond better, some do not respond at all. That's why I initially said that it can help for some, but I stress that it's the dietary and lifestyles choices overall that are the most important. Still, curcumin is great and has many health benefits, no reason to not use it!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003001/

 

[William Huggins]

You should probably find a newer source, but yeah you're right black pepper helps with absorbtion of Curcumin. I was talking about BPC 157 and human trials, I wrote Piperine by a mistake. Turmeric contains a small amount of Curcumin compared to the extract yes, but bioavailiability and quantity changes from extracts to foods. I like using real spices and only extracts for a few select things. In regards to Curcumin extract (with piperine) a meta-analysis found a mean decrease of 2 on pain using VAS score (0-10) compared to controls and 15 on WOMAC pain scores (0-100). That's really great, on par with some pain killers, but again it only improves pain to a certain extent. There's a few other things to consider. There's a relatively small amount of studies included, there were moderate risk of bias in some of them, they are on an older population with osteoarthritis and these are averages. Some people respond better, some do not respond at all. That's why I initially said that it can help for some, but I stress that it's the dietary and lifestyles choices overall that are the most important. Still, curcumin is great and has many health benefits, no reason to not use it!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003001/

I agree, diet is a very important part and it should be one of the first things along with mental stress to be addressed regarding inflammation in the body, supplements are a secondary line. I do mix my curcumin with CBD isolate as well, it's great before bed.

 

[Sano]

I agree, diet is a very important part and it should be one of the first things along with mental stress to be addressed regarding inflammation in the body, supplements are a secondary line. I do mix my curcumin with CBD isolate as well, it's great before bed.

Diet, stress management and exercise are the fundamentals for sure.

Yeah I take CBD too! Creatine, CBD and Citrulline is what I use as sups. I wouldn't be opposed to adding Curcumin though, as far as sups go it seems really solid. I just dont have joint pain anymore at all, after years of pain.

 

[William Huggins]

Diet, stress management and exercise are the fundamentals for sure.

Yeah I take CBD too! Creatine, CBD and Citrulline is what I use as sups. I wouldn't be opposed to adding Curcumin though, as far as sups go it seems really solid. I just dont have joint pain anymore at all, after years of pain.

How do you find the Citrulline? What sort of dosage are you running.

I take Curcumin as a daily longer term thing 1g a day, it's not for current issues, more of a maintenance thing.