Non-Christians, or Non-Abrahamic Religious Folks, in the WR?

Or if you're the kind of person who can accept just not knowing, and that you will never know, then maybe you'll be happier while you're here. Most of us just aren't smart enough or wired well enough to live our lives that way very often.
Accepting that you don't know is just the first step, though (albeit one many people never reach).

Once you've accepted your lack of knowing, your "a-gnosis," you still have the choice of how to react.

This is the existentialist situation; one's existence precedes his "essence" (in the sense that we don't know what we "really" are or what we are "really" meant to be doing here.)

From this point, your life becomes your existential project- or to use a mythological term, your quest.

Most people live in a cocoon of facile belief or distraction. Of those who will face their lack of knowing honestly and with unwaveringly, the majority will despair and fold into a sort of spiritual paralysis - a low grade depression (malaise) that they alternately seek to medicate or ignore. Or they will adopt the petulant posture of the rebel - which is really just an adolescent reaction to the child's trauma of abandonment. This is the root cause of our current zeitgeist, IMO.

Only the few will admit their lack of knowing BUT live a life of creativity, joy, gratitude and meaning, free of bitterness or disillusion.

My personal philosophy is to live in concord with the most beautiful reality I can imagine (that is, which I do not have to rule out based on reason).

Our culture is currently suffering from nothing as much as the death of imagination; people don't have the strength to believe in the beauty they can conceive.

The antidote is Romanticism. "Romantic" has become a slur to describe naivete, but really Romanticism is the most pragmatic posture to adopt in the face of our existential uncertainty. If you don't know, why not endeavor to find the the courage to live in hope? It is a non-dogmatic version of Pascal's wager.

As Keats put it, 'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'
 
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I was taking you up on your offer to explain why Christianity was a necessary precondition for modern science. The sizzle on your steak correction was good. I don't care to contest your novel assertion the Inquisition was justifiable and didn't burn too many heretics.

It is more valuable to me to find places to agree with people like you, who seems principled and has some reason. Wasting time to argue with automata like Jgarner is can crushing. Fun to watch, nobody learns shit.

Bite my shiny metal ass!

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There's nothing really to learn in an argument with a person who holds irrational beliefs, no matter how many people also believe it or how old it is. They'll never show science to be wrong. You'll never prove something with no evidence of it's existence doesn't exist. The only thing you can really learn is some psychology behind mass delusions. Which that's exactly what believing in religion is. A delusion. It's something that people without a spine use to feel better about dying and explaining things science has yet to explain.
 
I cannot say that I've ever felt the influence of the "spirit" in any way. I suppose I'm still registered as a Lutheran somewhere, but by 8-9 years of age I always found the stories of some man in a distant desert nothing but a bore and a waste of my time. Always was more interested in the local "mythology" of Karelia.

If you're going to be bullshitting yourself, it's atleast preferable that it's your own bullshit, not somebody elses.
 
I cannot say that I've ever felt the influence of the "spirit" in any way. I suppose I'm still registered as a Lutheran somewhere, but by 8-9 years of age I always found the stories of some man in a distant desert nothing but a bore and a waste of my time. Always was more interested in the local "mythology" of Karelia.

If you're going to be bullshitting yourself, it's atleast preferable that it's your own bullshit, not somebody elses.
Or a flavor of bullshit that you enjoy and which doesn't run counter to basic mental/emotional hygiene.

Also, if we are built to bullshit ourselves, that is to be the happiest and most productive when we are operating under the tenants of a selectively imagined narrative, who is to that that it IS bullshit? Is fulfilling one's evolutionary destiny to the best of one's ability bullshit?
 
So is your god anthropomorphic or not?
I already answered and you're impressing no one repeating your false dichotomy. You're no Socrates and can't play act one.

Show me a evidence that there are large groups of people who think science is divine and worship science in the same way people think Jesus is divine and worship Jesus.
I'd rather back up my own statements than your silly strawmen. I already asked you to stop trying to put words into my mouth, as it is as dishonest as it is easy to notice. There are many ways to worship and they're certainly not limited to how people think of Christ.

No one has to believe your silly assertion that there are people who think science is divine or god like.
I see you missed the posts by @jgarner. He obviously thinks it's magic and that his faith in it is all that is required for everything he believes to become true.

You just want those who do not believe in god to be your companions in guilt.
No, I'd prefer them to be honest.

You want them to be guilty of blind faith, revering objects and showing credulity and uncritical caution when believing claims. We are not your companions, you are alone.
I'm fully aware that you're not my companions. You have faith in what you know is entirely man made and imperfect at best. I don't.

Science tells us how the world and everything in it works.
Right. The problem with your assertion that metaphysics doesn't concern itself with how the world and everything in it works.

Science informs metaphysics.
It doesn't.

Experiments have shown that thought or thinking is unconscious, that introspection is unreliable, etc. People with no sight, or experience of sight, can still see. People with no language can still think, etc.
I marvel your skill at pointing out irrelevancies like you think you're making a point.

Just like statues of Jesus aren't and the many statues of idols people worship in the past and in the present. But I never seen a statue or a symbol of science that is worshipped or prayed to.
The sort of wishful thinking that could easily be interpreted as prayer exists in abundance and is quite ubiquitous even on this forum. It manifests itself, among other ways, in statements like "Science informs metaphysics".

You said: Scientific? Hardly, there's no empirical testing involved. Logical? Sure. You implied that the BGV is not scientific. It is obvious you don't understand.
You claimed I support "a scientific theory" because it supports my worldview and I simply noted that while the premise of an uncaused cause is impossible in the physical realm and thus evidence of outside interference is a logical one, it can't be tested and as such isn't scientific. I have literally never mentioned BGV in any way, shape or form.

I wash showing you the fallacy in your reasoning and all you can come back with is "irrelevant". You should at least thank me for correcting you.
You corrected nothing. You agreed to my point and then spouted an irrelevance beside it.

I asked what you meant with "impossible first cause". If something is a first cause how can it be impossible? You didn't give any reasoning for this claim.
All the evidence science points to is that everything that happens has a cause or a bunch of them, depending on the perspective. There is absolutely zero evidence of any kind for anything else.

What is? Is it the "impossible first cause" you claim?
Yep, that.

You didn't even explain what this is. I have never read seen this in anything related to the topic. Did you just invent that?
No, the fact that everything that happens in the physical world happens because something else happened prior to it isn't a particularly novel idea and certainly not one I've coined.

No I didn't. You are confused and don't know what you are talking about. So I didn't understand anything.
Your interpretation was "you probably meant to say 'natural' explanation rather than 'materialist' explanation" and I noted that you understood me correctly. It's odd to backtrack now.

You cannot even formulate the thesis of physicalism let alone refute it. You just like to throw these terms around without knowing what they mean.
You get the gist of what I mean by the term by reading what you claim here. That's what I mean by materialism.

Direct me to it, I haven't seen it. I hope you are not being dishonest.
Here it is, for the second time: That's the Christian hypothesis, but it does not directly result from there having been a beginning. One could also attribute it to, say, multiverse in which some programmers make a highly elaborate game called our universe and put it together in a group effort. The impossible first cause suggests an answer from the outside, but it doesn't limit that answer to just one. Causality renders a materialist explanation impossible, but makes no claims about the nature of the supernatural or extraplanar involved. I'd appreciate if you didn't try to get me to defend claims you make up. It's as annoying as it is dishonest. You should try reading all of it and think about it until you understand what was written.

LOL. You said: Proto scientific never became scientific. Christianity did (become scientific? lol). This is laughable.
Your expression of faux mirth isn't much of an argument. To be precise, I claimed Christianity was the father of science. Christianity itself is not a science, it is a faith.

Why do you want Christianity to be scientific so much? You surely seem like you revere science so much you want to unify it with your religion.
I'm not interested in your opinions or speculations about me.

You say that science follows from the premises of Christianity?
Not only that: I also say that the premises that directly led to the invention of science were and are not shared by any other culture or faith in the world.

Can you derive the theory of relativity from these Christian premises?
Obviously.

So much irony in this post. It describes all your posts so far in this thread.
Do you get off on making claims that expose you a liar beyond any doubt?

I already explained why this reasoning is fallacious.
You did nothing even remotely to that effect.

You are to emotionally invested in your belief to realise it is false. It is like that guy who was blind because he drunk whisky all day everyday. The doctor told him to stop drinking and he would see again. So he stopped drinking, but then immediately resumed his drinking again. When asked why, he said that he didn't like what he saw. The same with you, if you stop believing in your fantasy you will not like the reality you will see. So you keep drinking your fantasy.
And again you keep projecting and pretend there is no question to answer. Who do you think you're fooling?

You'd do well to stop projecting your behavioral patterns onto me. We're nothing alike; we do not share the fundamentals, thought patterns or motivations. Trying to paint me up as a caricature of yourself goes reliably wrong and while it was funny for a while, repeating it ad infinitum is really tedious.
 
@Thurisaz, if we must battle for peace, let us find peace in the battle?

I ask you again to lay out your case for why Christianity was a necessary precondition for science, (as distinct from any of the other monitheisms which predate the Roman State version of Christ codified at Nicea...)

Or go back to can crushing. Too bad these fap-masters like @jgarner have all the time in the world.
 
@Thurisaz, if we must battle for peace, let us find peace in the battle?
Sure, a clash of formidable intellects is always glorious to see, and, on this forum, all too rare.

I ask you again to lay out your case for why Christianity was a necessary precondition for science, (as distinct from any of the other monitheisms which predate the Roman State version of Christ codified at Nicea...)
Sorry, the first time escaped me. I thought you simply outlined your attempt at answer. Here:
Pearcey and Thaxton, in their book, The Soul of Science, explain in great detail that it was the ideals and assumptions of Christianity that led to science and thus greater technological advances.

These ideals and assumptions include:

  • Belief that the universe was created and ordered by a transcendent, rational mind
  • Belief that the universe is lawful and knowable
  • Belief in the reality of the physical world
  • Belief that the physical world is of value
  • Viewing physical work as noble, as a divine calling
  • The Biblical admonishment to test claims
  • Viewing the study of nature as a proper form of worship
  • Belief in linear time
  • Belief that mathematics forms the substrate of the physical world

Every non-Christian culture lacks at least one, and usually several, of these, which are all necessary for the development and advancement of science.


I borrowed it from Vox Day, it isn't my text. I haven't read the book yet either, but will do so when I get my greedy eyes on it.
 
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I already answered and you're impressing no one repeating your false dichotomy. You're no Socrates and can't play act one.


I'd rather back up my own statements than your silly strawmen. I already asked you to stop trying to put words into my mouth, as it is as dishonest as it is easy to notice. There are many ways to worship and they're certainly not limited to how people think of Christ.


I see you missed the posts by @jgarner. He obviously thinks it's magic and that his faith in it is all that is required for everything he believes to become true.


No, I'd prefer them to be honest.


I'm fully aware that you're not my companions. You have faith in what you know is entirely man made and imperfect at best. I don't.


Right. The problem with your assertion that metaphysics doesn't concern itself with how the world and everything in it works.


It doesn't.


I marvel your skill at pointing out irrelevancies like you think you're making a point.


The sort of wishful thinking that could easily be interpreted as prayer exists in abundance and is quite ubiquitous even on this forum. It manifests itself, among other ways, in statements like "Science informs metaphysics".


You claimed I support "a scientific theory" because it supports my worldview and I simply noted that while the premise of an uncaused cause is impossible in the physical realm and thus evidence of outside interference is a logical one, it can't be tested and as such isn't scientific. I have literally never mentioned BGV in any way, shape or form.


You corrected nothing. You agreed to my point and then spouted an irrelevance beside it.


All the evidence science points to is that everything that happens has a cause or a bunch of them, depending on the perspective. There is absolutely zero evidence of any kind for anything else.


Yep, that.


No, the fact that everything that happens in the physical world happens because something else happened prior to it isn't a particularly novel idea and certainly not one I've coined.


Your interpretation was "you probably meant to say 'natural' explanation rather than 'materialist' explanation" and I noted that you understood me correctly. It's odd to backtrack now.


You get the gist of what I mean by the term by reading what you claim here. That's what I mean by materialism.


Here it is, for the second time: That's the Christian hypothesis, but it does not directly result from there having been a beginning. One could also attribute it to, say, multiverse in which some programmers make a highly elaborate game called our universe and put it together in a group effort. The impossible first cause suggests an answer from the outside, but it doesn't limit that answer to just one. Causality renders a materialist explanation impossible, but makes no claims about the nature of the supernatural or extraplanar involved. I'd appreciate if you didn't try to get me to defend claims you make up. It's as annoying as it is dishonest. You should try reading all of it and think about it until you understand what was written.


Your expression of faux mirth isn't much of an argument. To be precise, I claimed Christianity was the father of science. Christianity itself is not a science, it is a faith.


I'm not interested in your opinions or speculations about me.


Not only that: I also say that the premises that directly led to the invention of science were and are not shared by any other culture or faith in the world.


Obviously.


Do you get off on making claims that expose you a liar beyond any doubt?


You did nothing even remotely to that effect.


And again you keep projecting and pretend there is no question to answer. Who do you think you're fooling?

You'd do well to stop projecting your behavioral patterns onto me. We're nothing alike; we do not share the fundamentals, thought patterns or motivations. Trying to paint me up as a caricature of yourself goes reliably wrong and while it was funny for a while, repeating it ad infinitum is really tedious.

Actually I require that a single shred of legitimate evidence be presented for your outrageous claims and your fairytale origin story. Christians can't even provide that.
 
Actually I require that a single shred of legitimate evidence be presented for your outrageous claims and your fairytale origin story.
When one's premise is "all evidence in favor of Christianity is invalid" there's little reason to provide any. You hold it to an impossible standard (to be more precise, your blanket denial has no standard and it isn't dependent on information), while your faith in the repeated failure known as the theory of evolution is entirely unaffected even by constant falsifications. When you have attitudes instead of actual standards you can't learn anything.

Christians can't even provide that.
Christians can't learn honesty, humility or to accept reality instead of wishful thinking, for you. It's your job. I'm not about to hold my breath on any of those changing in the forseeable future.
 
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Most people live in a cocoon of facile belief or distraction. Of those who will face their lack of knowing honestly and with unwaveringly, the majority will despair and fold into a sort of spiritual paralysis - a low grade depression (malaise) that they alternately seek to medicate or ignore. Or they will adopt the petulant posture of the rebel - which is really just an adolescent reaction to the child's trauma of abandonment. This is the root cause of our current zeitgeist, IMO.
I'm impressed. Correctly identifying the abandonment of Christianity in a roundabout way as the root cause of our civilizational decline is something beyond most nonbelievers due to their rejection of Christ. It's refreshing to see an honest agnostic for a change.

The antidote is Romanticism. "Romantic" has become a slur to describe naivete, but really Romanticism is the most pragmatic posture to adopt in the face of our existential uncertainty. If you don't know, why not endeavor to find the the courage to live in hope? It is a non-dogmatic version of Pascal's wager.

As Keats put it, 'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'
When the disease is the rejection of Christ, the cure is to re-embrace his love. I do sympathize with your sentiments, I've shared most of the thoughts you so succinctly expressed in certain points of my life.
 
When one's premise is "all evidence in favor of Christianity is invalid" there's little reason to provide any. You hold it to an impossible standard (to be more precise, your blanket denial has no standard and it isn't dependent on information), while your faith in the repeated failure known as the theory of evolution is entirely unaffected even by constant falsifications. When you have attitudes instead of actual standards you can't learn anything.

Christians can't learn honesty, humility or to accept reality instead of wishful thinking, for you. It's your job. I'm not about to hold my breath on any of those changing in the forseeable future.

No, I hold a basic scientific standard that is the same across the board for everyone and every claim. Maybe you should pick up a high school science book and learn about it. The Theory of Evolution is well grounded in repeatable science and facts. Anyone who wants can go replicate any of the science behind evolution. Of course you'd need to start at a more basic level because of your lack of knowledge but you could work up to it. Evolution is the basis for biology. If you want to make the claim that biology is wrong, then by all means say it. You'd be the crazy one of course. I have standards, you just can't meet them with your bullshit so you want to try and invalidate them but you can't. Science is real whether you like it or not. Religion is unproven bullshit whether you like it or not.
 
No, I hold a basic scientific standard that is the same across the board for everyone and every claim.
My example about evolution already proves that statement is full of shit.

The Theory of Evolution is well grounded in repeatable science and facts.
Bullshit doesn't magically become true by lying. Perhaps you should read a book on occasion, just to notice that there's stuff written in and your feelings about any particular subject isn't what constitutes knowledge on it.

Anyone who wants can go replicate any of the science behind evolution.
Anyone can try. So far no one's managed to verify it.

Evolution is the basis for biology.
No it isn't. There was biology long before TENS was developed and there will be biology long after it has been thrown into the dustbin of failed wishful thinking masquerading as science for the uninformed.
 
My example about evolution already proves that statement is full of shit.

Go ahead then. Repost your examples of evolution having no evidence since I seemed to miss that doozie of a post. Apparently you disproved every scientist on the planet and I missed it. All those PhDs and lives dedicated to it that were just wrong and it took you what, half an hour to prove them wrong? I'm excited to hear you revelations. Go ahead. Disprove the evidence for evolution. I'd love to hear you talk about genetics and the fossil record and explain that.

Bullshit doesn't magically become true by lying. Perhaps you should read a book on occasion, just to notice that there's stuff written in and your feelings about any particular subject isn't what constitutes knowledge on it.

Bullshit doesn't become magically true because it's written in an old book and you want it to be true. Just like you pretending that evolution doesn't have tons of evidence that can be replicated by anyone doesn't make it true.

Anyone can try. So far no one's managed to verify it.

No it isn't. There was biology long before TENS was developed and there will be biology long after it has been thrown into the dustbin of failed wishful thinking masquerading as science for the uninformed.

Countless scientists from different areas of the world have replicated the facts behind the Theory of Evolution. Again, it's the fundamental basis for biology. You haven't said a single fucking thing with any real substance. It's easy to make dismissive comments about the evidence, but harder to disprove.
 
Go ahead then. Repost your examples of evolution having no evidence since I seemed to miss that doozie of a post.
Are you seriously stupid enough to think I and everyone else don't notice that you keep shifting the goalposts every time you post? I'm not inclined to start defending bullshit you come up with any more than I do it with meauneau.

Apparently you disproved every scientist on the planet and I missed it.
Again, your feelings about anything aren't an argument. Science nor the work of actual scientists is hardly affected by anyone noting that TENS isn't science.

Bullshit doesn't become magically true because it's written in an old book and you want it to be true.
Old books don't become bullshit by being old.

Just like you pretending that evolution doesn't have tons of evidence that can be replicated by anyone doesn't make it true.
There's lots of stuff one could reasonably interpret as evidence for evolution, but precisely none of it proves the macro level or the main thesis of the theory, that of explaining the origin of the species. The fact that the theory has also been falsified multiple times also casts doubt on its value to anything other than as a vehicle for nincompoops trying to posture as intellectual giants.

Countless scientists from different areas of the world have replicated the facts behind the Theory of Evolution.
There aren't any facts behind the theory of evolution. You apparently don't even know its function.

Again, it's the fundamental basis for biology.
Again, there was biology before it and still is now after TENS has suffered repeated scientific bankruptcies that invalidate it as a hypothesis.

You haven't said a single fucking thing with any real substance.
You should stop projecting. I've already provided multiple failures of TENS and told why it's not a scientific theory.
 
Are you seriously stupid enough to think I and everyone else don't notice that you keep shifting the goalposts every time you post? I'm not inclined to start defending bullshit you come up with any more than I do it with meauneau.

What shifted goalpost? You already posted it apparently. Just repost it for me.

Again, your feelings about anything aren't an argument. Science nor the work of actual scientists is hardly affected by anyone noting that TENS isn't science.

What I said wasn't a feeling you moron. It was a sarcastic remark regarding you apparently disproving evolution, which of course is laughable.

Old books don't become bullshit by being old.

Did I say that? I said bullshit doesn't become true because it's written in an old book. As in your religious beliefs are bullshit and the fact that they were written a long time ago doesn't make them less bullshit.

There's lots of stuff one could reasonably interpret as evidence for evolution, but precisely none of it proves the macro level or the main thesis of the theory, that of explaining the origin of the species. The fact that the theory has also been falsified multiple times also casts doubt on its value to anything other than as a vehicle for nincompoops trying to posture as intellectual giants.

Everything about micro-evolution points to macro-evolution being correct. If macro-evolution wasn't real then how did our current species of animals arise on this planet? Why does the fossil and genetic record indicate otherwise? Macro-evolution is simply micro-evolution over the course of millions of years.

There aren't any facts behind the theory of evolution. You apparently don't even know its function.

donald-trump-wrong-meme-debate-wrong.jpg


I suggest reading a book on evolution before you mash your fat fingers on the keyboard.

Again, there was biology before it and still is now after TENS has suffered repeated scientific bankruptcies that invalidate it as a hypothesis.

Yes, there was also physics before the theory of relativity. It still ties it all together just as the theory of evolution ties together biology.

You should stop projecting. I've already provided multiple failures of TENS and told why it's not a scientific theory.

No, in fact you haven't provided multiple failures. Even if there is a failure, that's the scientific review process working. That's the point of science, it's real whether you like it or not. Currently the theory of evolution has passed peer review and has yet to be disproved by anyone. If it had been, it wouldn't be a fucking theory. I'd like to see you tell that to the AIBS and ASCB. Since I know you have no idea who those two organizations are, you might just want to google them. They'd be greatly interested in why you think their theory isn't in fact a theory. :rolleyes:
 
Ok, idiot. Either you're completely oblivious to what you wrote a few minutes ago or try to lie again. I don't care which and so you're out.

Sure buddy. It's a nice way to get yourself out of the corner you backed yourself into.
 
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