No Limit Hold 'Em Poker Discussion

I watch some of the finals and they usually include players who haven't played for long. The big names that were at many final tables in the past seem to go out early these days. It suggests that luck plays a bigger role than skill. I see more players playing what pros consider weak cards like 2s and 3s and winning with them. The more people that play at the table, the more difficult it is to win. Some people that don't read books have different strategy. They bet big on good hands instead of just calling like the books say. Some pros assume they are bluffing. There are also lots of players who go all in on every hand so playing skills don't come into play. You need better cards to beat them.

It's a multitude of factors IMO. I think the size of the playing fields likely plateaued about a decade ago, so I'm not sure how much of a factor that still is. But yes, a larger field = more luck is needed to make a final table.

Also, many old school pros still haven't fully adapted to new school styles of play. From what I've heard Hellmuth is a good example of this. He is an excellent tournament player, but doesn't fare so well at cash games, with his antiquated style of play often cited as the reason.

In addition, it would seem that the super-aggressive style of many newer players does lend itself to luck being more of a factor in bigger pots. I mean, even if you're 60-40 to win the pot, how many all-ins are you going to win if you keep calling those? Theoretically in the long, you still should come out ahead. But on any given night, they can wipe your stack out pretty easy. Those players tend to make their money off (1) people folding when they've already invested something in the pot, (2) falling ass backwards into big hands when they play rags, and (3) winning as the underdog when get called, IMO.
 
I watch some of the finals and they usually include players who haven't played for long. The big names that were at many final tables in the past seem to go out early these days. It suggests that luck plays a bigger role than skill. I see more players playing what pros consider weak cards like 2s and 3s and winning with them. The more people that play at the table, the more difficult it is to win. Some people that don't read books have different strategy. They bet big on good hands instead of just calling like the books say. Some pros assume they are bluffing. There are also lots of players who go all in on every hand so playing skills don't come into play. You need better cards to beat them.


It's tough, generally speaking now from what I've seen. The discrepancy in talent of players that are regularly active is massive.

I've noticed that a lot of books call for having a general table strategy, depending on how loose/tight passive/aggresive a table is. But really you need a hand by hand strategy based on who you enter the pot with. You really have to be able diagnose player styles quickly and adapt hand by hand. If it takes you a long time to figure out how a player is behaving you are probably fucked.

Also, a lot of people know the math and are willing to gamble on it, which opens them up to playing a wider range of hands than you might expect. I see guys who know a hand is roughly a coinflip and will push all in preflop hoping for callers. They know depending on pot size they only have to win better than 50% of the time they are called and view it as a long term profitable play especially when you factor in the times they have the blinds or smaller raises folded to them. A guy who views cash game play as a single never-ending game will act differently than someone who views each time they sit at a table as a new game.
 
It's tough, generally speaking now from what I've seen. The discrepancy in talent of players that are regularly active is massive.

I've noticed that a lot of books call for having a general table strategy, depending on how loose/tight passive/aggresive a table is. But really you need a hand by hand strategy based on who you enter the pot with. You really have to be able diagnose player styles quickly and adapt hand by hand. If it takes you a long time to figure out how a player is behaving you are probably fucked.

Also, a lot of people know the math and are willing to gamble on it, which opens them up to playing a wider range of hands than you might expect. I see guys who know a hand is roughly a coinflip and will push all in preflop hoping for callers. They know depending on pot size they only have to win better than 50% of the time they are called and view it as a long term profitable play especially when you factor in the times they have the blinds or smaller raises folded to them. A guy who views cash game play as a single never-ending game will act differently than someone who views each time they sit at a table as a new game.

Good points. Though I think Limit Hold 'em is a bit more cut-and-dry. Changing your playing style hand-by-hand isn't really a necessity relative to NLH IMO. And yeah, I kind of take it as a given that every hand in NLH is kind of its own beast.

On a side note, the guy pushing all-in with a perceived 50/50 chance of winning the pot, and any relevant amount of dead money in the pot, is making the right move IMO. That scenario pays out in the long run, no matter how you dice it. Conversely, the guy calling is making at best a neutral move long-term. Of course, this is based on the assumption that the odds are actually 50/50, which is impossible to know in real time.
 
It's a multitude of factors IMO. I think the size of the playing fields likely plateaued about a decade ago, so I'm not sure how much of a factor that still is. But yes, a larger field = more luck is needed to make a final table.

Also, many old school pros still haven't fully adapted to new school styles of play. From what I've heard Hellmuth is a good example of this. He is an excellent tournament player, but doesn't fare so well at cash games, with his antiquated style of play often cited as the reason.

In addition, it would seem that the super-aggressive style of many newer players does lend itself to luck being more of a factor in bigger pots. I mean, even if you're 60-40 to win the pot, how many all-ins are you going to win if you keep calling those? Theoretically in the long, you still should come out ahead. But on any given night, they can wipe your stack out pretty easy. Those players tend to make their money off (1) people folding when they've already invested something in the pot, (2) falling ass backwards into big hands when they play rags, and (3) winning as the underdog when get called, IMO.

I started watching in 2005. There were several players that were at multiple final tables over the years but they seldom make it show up at the final table. They are on other shows like Poker After Dark where they play heads up against each other.
 
I started watching in 2005. There were several players that were at multiple final tables over the years but they seldom make it show up at the final table. They are on other shows like Poker After Dark where they play heads up against each other.

Making final tables is hard. The fields in WSOP have been huge since over a decade ago. Even back then it would have been an exception to see a guy make multiple final tables in the same WSOP. Was it Greg Raymer who made to two final tables in a row, in '04 and '05. That's unreal.

Edit: it was Dan Harrinton, who finished 3rd and 4th in '03 and '04. Raymer won in '03 and finished 25th in '04. Both spastically incredibly unlikely.
 
best live cash game on Youtube atm

 
I find poker terribly slow and boring. But thats just me. You do you!!
 
I used to play a ton of poker, preferred o-8 to HE though.
Once playing online stopped being a mainstream thing I stopped playing and just put that energy into other things. I still enjoy a few trips to play cards a year now but I don't take it seriously.
 
Was playing in the casino tonight.

Guy next to me wasn't covering his cards and I warned him 3 times I had seen his cards.

5 minutes later he flashed his cards again....7d8d. I got dealt Q7 off.

Flop Q77. I bet, he called. Turn a 4. I bet, he called.

Pot is now about 120. We both have 500+ left.

River 8. I check. He bets 45. I push all in, he calls.




I like to play fair, but did not feel bad one bit.
 
Was playing in the casino tonight.

Guy next to me wasn't covering his cards and I warned him 3 times I had seen his cards.

5 minutes later he flashed his cards again....7d8d. I got dealt Q7 off.

Flop Q77. I bet, he called. Turn a 4. I bet, he called.

Pot is now about 120. We both have 500+ left.

River 8. I check. He bets 45. I push all in, he calls.




I like to play fair, but did not feel bad one bit.

Savage
 

Warned him 3 times. Told him I wouldn't warn him again.

Same guy about an hour later. I had QQ. We got into a 6 bet raising war pre so about 130 bb in the middle playing deep.

Flop comes A K 10. He tuts and folds out of position giving me the pot.
 
What's big now?

I'm still very might a tight, odds guy. I guess cash grinding, if you have the time, you keep making positive EV plays you'll be ok. You know, the old Daniel Negreanu 4/5 times the BB if you're at a stronger table (compared to yourself) and not be scared to push or 3 BBs and small ball poker if you're at a weaker table.

But the super aggro guys with huge bets tend to screw up a lot of the bets. I guess in that respect having a idea of opening ranges is huge.
 
one of the worst folds i’ve seen in awhile

 
Was playing in the casino tonight.

Guy next to me wasn't covering his cards and I warned him 3 times I had seen his cards.

5 minutes later he flashed his cards again....7d8d. I got dealt Q7 off.

Flop Q77. I bet, he called. Turn a 4. I bet, he called.

Pot is now about 120. We both have 500+ left.

River 8. I check. He bets 45. I push all in, he calls.




I like to play fair, but did not feel bad one bit.


lol. If this was true u would be the biggest fuckin idiot on Sherdog.

But I'll assume you just have a bad memory and/or lack attention to detail. Which would still make me question your poker abilities, but is excusable.

DUCY?
 
lol. If this was true u would be the biggest fuckin idiot on Sherdog.

But I'll assume you just have a bad memory and/or lack attention to detail. Which would still make me question your poker abilities, but is excusable.

DUCY?

Do tell.....
 
Do tell.....

lolz, my bad.

The first time I saw your post I read it as 677 on the flop. Thought u were saying the guy had a full house but u won. Was just messing with u, cuz i figured u misclicked the hand history. But it was probly just me reading the story in Fugazi's quote like an asshole.

And ur only an asshole if that guy is 60+ imo. At some point folks are too old to protect themselves. But before then, fuck 'em.
 
@LEWIS540 , @Fugazy

Poker story for u shit heads, since u seem like the only ones who would appreciate it...

So I'm playing a $120 at the Venetian earlier this year. My wife and I go about every 6 weeks, cuz I used to play for a living online, and back then we would go every couple weeks. Used to get the poker rate at the Aria, but then we got married there, so now it's basically free. Also, we live in Southern California, she knows what she's doing, and I'm still a winning player. Used to play 6-8 tables of $3-$6 online, 10+ hours a day. Played up to the $2,500 tourneys in the series. Gonna play a couple events this year, after a couple years off. Wife plays the 1k Ladies Event. But I digress.

So we get down to the final table of 9, remaining prize pool is about 9k. It's about 11 pm, tourney started at 5. Typical for these tourneys, everyone has 10-40 BBs, so I lightheartedly suggest a chop. I assumed somebody would strongly object, and at the very least a couple people would say "I came to play". This is always fun cuz there's 1 or 2 guys that inevitably act like they have a massive skill edge, and they'll never let all these fish off the hook by letting them chop. They have no idea how clueless they look when they assume ANYONE has a huge edge, let alone them, with 20 BB stacks in a structure with 15 minute levels and blinds doubling every level at that point.

So I suggest the chop 9 handed, everybody can walk with a thousand bucks and go enjoy their night. To my surprise, everyone sort of nods in agreement. Except one old motherfucker. He says something to the young guy next to him, clearly about the chop, and clearly against it, but doesn't address me. I'm in Seat 3, he's in 7, he says something to 8. So i don't really hear him, but I can assume it's like, "look at this idiot trying to con us. I'm not going for it. No chop." And I guess the dealer and the players on that side heard the guy, and it was clear we weren't chopping, so we start the next hand.

2 people get knocked out. Down to 7. So I suggest chop again. This time, the old guy says to me "NO! THATS RIDICULOUS! Why would we chop with 7 players? So i can win 1200 bucks? I didn't come to win 1200 bucks. Thats stupid". I say something like "well u can take over a thousand bucks for ur time, and we don't all have to sit here and flip coins for hundreds of dollars until 2am." He says "NO! NO CHOP! JUST LEAVE IT ALONE,UR NOT GONNA SUCKER ANYBODY!"

Now the dealer calls time, calls the floor over, and basically sides with the guy. Says something like "Seat 7 does not want to chop and we can't move on. He has said he doesn't want to chop, but now we're talking about chopping again. I can't deal right now." So I say "Ok, relax. It's not a big deal. I was just suggesting a chop, which I'm entitled to do at any time." And the dealer said something about me harassing the other guy to the floor. At this point, I was pretty shocked cuz I was being jovial, and me and the guy hadn't really addressed each other. He had just complained about me to other people. But theres cranky old guys like that at every table. And I thought that was obvious to everyone. But the dealer was telling it to the floor like I was really harassing the guy. So I got serious, and said to the floor "I broached the idea of a chop at 9 players, we did not agree, 2 players have since been eliminated, the circumstances have changed significantly enough to warrant a new discussion of a different chop". And the floor agrees with me, and says that is completely reasonable.

As the floor is talking I'm just staring at the dealer. And when he stops i say "You need anything else explained?". Asshole comment, I know. But I'm always more than nice, so fuck that guy. Anyway, floor asks if there is interest in a chop, old guy strongly objects. No surprise. So we proceed. At this point everyone has 5-30 BBs, and nobody is terrible, so there's practically zero skill left in the game. One more gets KO'd. 6 left. So naturally.........I suggest a chop. These things are fluid, you know. lol

So this time the old guy gets even madder, says I'm harassing him. Tells the floor to do something about it to protect him. I say "oh now I'm bullying u? is that next? ur being bullied?" He says "YA! YOU ARE A BULLY! AND YOU ARE BULLYING ME!! NOW LEAVE ME ALONE. I WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE! At this point there's actually a vegas shooter type vibe from the guy, like he will shoot up the place to solve all his problems. My wife is behind me the whole time and legit worried about this maniac. So again this dealer sides with the guy and acts like he is being harrassed. Nobody else at the table is acting that way btw. I should say in my defense. It's just the old guy and the dealer. So I joke about chopping at 6 players, but I know it's not happening. Even though at this point other people are finally saying they want to chop. But the old guy is acting like "hey, we're not gonna let this guy con us right?" And everyone is just sort of quietly trying to convince him, but nobody wants him to turn what he has towards me onto them.

So we start 6-handed. I get K9 on the button, folded around. Old guy's BB. I shove. He just stares at me, for probably 15-20 seconds. I'm staring back. Eventually I say something like "this is your chance......all the glory.....champion of the world............ but u have to call some time tonight." And he just goes "I CALLLL" all slow and dramatic. Slams a stack into the middle, flips over AJ. Lol im dead. Naturally.

Brick, Brick, Brick, Brick, King WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
<20>

I let out a proper Rick Flare in the mostly empty Venetian Poker Room. Acted like a complete asshole. Have never celebrated a hand at a live table outside that. But I acted like I just won the Main Event. "Did u see that? Can u believe that card came? O my god, it must be my day! You just gotta believe people! etc etc"

I only carry on for 10 or 15 seconds though. My wife is behind doing the shit where she's whispering my name like stop u idiot. Whatever. Now at this point one guy has about 40 BBs and the rest of us have 15-25. But everyone is still all-in by the turn with anything decent. So I finish pulling all the chips into a pile in front of me and look up at the table.......... "So u guys wanna chop?"....
.....
.......
.........

The old guy stands up out of his chair, says "I'M NOT GONNA BE HARASSED LIKE THIS ANY MORE. I'M DONE!!!" and shoves all of his remaining chips into the middle of the table, where about half of them go all the way into the pile in front of me. He storms off and acts like he's leaving, presumably to get a rifle. But instead he stands in the corner sulking, watches us blind him out, then comes back and collects 6th place money from the floor.

The rest of us then chopped 5 ways, and lived happily ever after.
 
Won 40 on the roulette at the casino Saturday. Sat down on a live cash table for the first time in 5 years. Lost 60.

Don't have the money to compete with the dudes that sit down with 200+ tbh.

Going to start going to more tournament games though. I lack fear in those thankfully.
 
Kenny Tran is the GOAT of poker

I dont need to know anything other than he has balls
 
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