No difference in strenght and hypertrohpy with high/low loads?

Hotora86 said:
OK, thanks for clarifying.
I used to plan my sets to fail in the last (3rd or 4th). Should I increase the weight and work until failure in 1 set? Or should I just not stop until failure without increasing weight?
Click to expand...

If you're looking to strictly improve hypertrophy, then train to failure for all of your work sets.

Example: Let's say you usually do 4X8 for biceps curls
- Do one or two warmup sets (not to failure)
- Do your 4X8 to failure
- By set 4, the weight you're using in order to reach 8 reps may be significantly less than in previous sets because your muscles are fatigued. This is ok (if we're training specifically for hypertrophy).

In order to reach the optimal volume, you'd need to repeat this for either more sets or more exercises for that particular muscle group. The amount of volume your body can handle will depend on the individual.

In order to reach optimal frequency, you'll need to repeat this process at least 2-3 times per week. Studies found that training muscle groups multiple times a week was superior for hypertrophy than going balls out and beating the living fuck out of a muscle group once a week.

It's basically a balancing act.

For hypertrophy, you need to find your "sweet spot" where you can train to failure, while adding in enough volume for the workout, and still be able to recover enough to repeat the process later that week.
 
KILL KILL said:
If you're looking to strictly improve hypertrophy, then train to failure for all of your work sets.

Example: Let's say you usually do 4X8 for biceps curls
- Do one or two warmup sets (not to failure)
- Do your 4X8 to failure
- By set 4, the weight you're using in order to reach 8 reps may be significantly less than in previous sets because your muscles are fatigued. This is ok (if we're training specifically for hypertrophy).
Click to expand...
Isn't that called a drop set? I do that sometimes.

In order to reach optimal frequency, you'll need to repeat this process at least 2-3 times per week. Studies found that training muscle groups multiple times a week was superior for hypertrophy than going balls out and beating the living fuck out of a muscle group once a week.

It's basically a balancing act.

For hypertrophy, you need to find your "sweet spot" where you can train to failure, while adding in enough volume for the workout, and still be able to recover enough to repeat the process later that week.
Click to expand...
I train each muscle group once per week because it usually takes me 4-5 days to get rid of DOMS. I do 4 exercises x 4 sets x 8 reps per muscle group so I think the volume is there but the gains that I've been getting aren't great.

Thanks again for all the info.
 
Sano said:
Just stumbled on this article: http://baye.com/low-reps-vs-high-reps/

The thesis is that there is no significant difference between using high load/low rep or low load/high rep training protocols for increase in hypertrohpy and strenght, as long as you go to volitional failure. He is citing a study which had previously trained participants divided into two groups. In one group they did 30-50% of 1rm or 20-25 reps and in another they did 75-90% of 1rm for 8-12 reps. After 12 weeks, no significant different in cross sectional type 1 or 2 fibre distribution nor hypertrophy was found. Only a relevant increase in benchpress strenght for the high load group, not for other exercises.

He also mentions a few studies which shows that a single set to volitional failure, maintaining muscular tension, 2-3 times a week gives the same benefits as the usual multiple sets. This one in particular, which is quite frankly ballsy, suggest that strenght gains from free weights, machines and BW has the same potential with no significant differences, that the balance component of free weights doesn't transfer better to sports, that explosive movements have no greater benefit than slow controlled ones and that hypertrophy is genetics. Oh, and it also prescribes the "one set" protocol. That's some hardcore study lol, haven't read through it yet. - It's this one!: http://baye.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ebrtr-Fisher.pdf

Anyway, he suggests in the article, citing another study, that supersetting does not increase hypertrophy as "post-exercise levels of circulating hormones did not change as a result of the RT intervention were unrelated to, and did not account for significant changes in, muscle mass or strength” and “In agreement with previous studies (50-52) it is clear that the post-exercise increases in systemic hormone concentrations are unrelated to changes in muscle hypertrophy or strength." and in regards to loads that; "The current data, along with previous work (28, 35), are direct proof that hypertrophy and strength gains are not a function of the load lifted and directly contradict the assertion that acute EMG recordings predict hypertrophic potential"

He mentions that by extention that BW exercises can increase strenght and hypertrophy to the same degree as weight training.

He evens it out a little bit at the end saying that the neurological adaptions for 1RMs should stil be trained leading up to something like a PL competition and that too light a load will not stimulate to the same adaptions.

What say you guys? Is he cherry picking studies? Is the 8 reps range still not low enough? What's your take?
Click to expand...

One thing about the study that jumps out to me as off...who the fuck is lifting 90 percent of their 1rm for 8-12 reps?
 
I can attest from personal experience that this is bullshit. Once I stopped lifting heavy,I lost my ability to lift heavy.
 
By this logic, my deadlift should have gone up to 700lbs during the 10k kettlebell swing challenge I did. It did not increase at all.
 
selfcritical said:
One thing about the study that jumps out to me as off...who the fuck is lifting 90 percent of their 1rm for 8-12 reps?
Click to expand...
Taken from this PDF of the study in the OP: http://jap.physiology.org/content/early/2016/05/09/japplphysiol.00154.2016.full.pdf

"The LR(low repetition) group performed 3 sets of 8-12 repetitions per set which corresponded to ~75-90% of 1RM with each set being performed to volitional failure (38). The loads were adjusted in-between each set to ensure the correct repetition range was maintained." '

They adjusted the weights between sets to be sure to hit volitional failure within that rep range. Not sure if that makes it more plausible, but the study seems "ok" reading through it. ~75% at 12 reps seems okay, ~90% at 8 reps seems a tad much, even if it was only one set and only a few were able. Unless I'm missing something too.
 
Hotora86 said:
Isn't that called a drop set? I do that sometimes.


I train each muscle group once per week because it usually takes me 4-5 days to get rid of DOMS. I do 4 exercises x 4 sets x 8 reps per muscle group so I think the volume is there but the gains that I've been getting aren't great.

Thanks again for all the info.
Click to expand...

No, drop sets are when you complete a lift, and immediately lower the weight so that you can perform more reps. A warm up set is just so you don't injure yourself, and it primes the body to be able to lift heavier weights.

If you are getting that much DOMS, then lower the volume (until you can handle more) and increase the frequency. Also, follow the various recovery methods outlined in the FAQ, and eat more.
 
KILL KILL said:
No, drop sets are when you complete a lift, and immediately lower the weight so that you can perform more reps. A warm up set is just so you don't injure yourself, and it primes the body to be able to lift heavier weights.

If you are getting that much DOMS, then lower the volume (until you can handle more) and increase the frequency. Also, follow the various recovery methods outlined in the FAQ, and eat more.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Out of curiosity I actually did everything via drop sets yesterday, it killed me, I still feel tired. :p

So to sum up, after the two warmup sets I do heavy sets until failure but keep the 1 minute break between them as usual? Then I don't have to lower the weight immediately since I recover fast and I can do almost as many reps to failure with the same weight if I rest 1-2 mins.
 
deadshot138 said:
I can attest from personal experience that this is bullshit. Once I stopped lifting heavy,I lost my ability to lift heavy.
Click to expand...

Brad Shoenfeld doesn't say lifting lighter weights allows you to be stronger. He's only considering hypertrophy. What his "new" research shows is that for hypertrophy not strength, high weights vs lower weights can still have the same effect on hypertrophy based under the conditions or protocols used such as total volume. This goes against the lift heavy to get big maxim. He's written a book focusing on hypertrophy. That's his main interest. Do a google search and he does have a website.
 
Hotora86 said:
Thanks. Out of curiosity I actually did everything via drop sets yesterday, it killed me, I still feel tired. :p

So to sum up, after the two warmup sets I do heavy sets until failure but keep the 1 minute break between them as usual? Then I don't have to lower the weight immediately since I recover fast and I can do almost as many reps to failure with the same weight if I rest 1-2 mins.
Click to expand...

Going to failure, slow eccentric, heavy weights will typically cause DOMS. Anything your body isn't used to will in my experience cause DOMS.
 
I'm trying to find a nice balance between the two, both hypertrophy and strength. I've personally found that if I stop lifting heavy and focus solely on hypertrophy my lifts go down. This is common sense for most people.
What worked well for me was lifting heavy in one session, and moderate in another. I was able to get a good amount of volume in on the moderate day that I felt I had good muscle stimulation.
 
Flash_Monsta said:
I'm trying to find a nice balance between the two, both hypertrophy and strength. I've personally found that if I stop lifting heavy and focus solely on hypertrophy my lifts go down. This is common sense for most people.
What worked well for me was lifting heavy in one session, and moderate in another. I was able to get a good amount of volume in on the moderate day that I felt I had good muscle stimulation.
Click to expand...

What helped me was to lift heavy for main lifts like squats, deads, bench, overhead press, and higher rep ranges with assistance work.
 
spiderguarda said:
Going to failure, slow eccentric, heavy weights will typically cause DOMS. Anything your body isn't used to will in my experience cause DOMS.
Click to expand...
Yup, same here. Do you think DOMS is indication of a good workout? Or is building muscle possible without DOMS?
 
KILL KILL said:
What helped me was to lift heavy for main lifts like squats, deads, bench, overhead press, and higher rep ranges with assistance work.
Click to expand...

Sometime referred to as, "Powerbuilding". A lot of high level lifters and coaches recommend this type of training; Brandon Lilly, Chad Wesley Smith, Wendler etc.

If done correctly, it's potentially the best of both worlds. Develop real strength in the big compound movements, while simultaneously building Pecs and Guns that turn on nuns.:)
 
High rep compounds and brosistance work.

First class ticket on the gain train.
 
Sure there's an ss type workout. Bere it is.

-2-3 "easy" runs e Rey week
-1 longer rh each week
-1 sprint session each week

Do that for awhile.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,236,683
Messages
55,434,313
Members
174,775
Latest member
kilgorevontrouty

Share this page

Back
Top