New Ken Primola Free DVD offer - Be Aware

[dirtypablo]

Im confused. How is he charging you unless you already gave him your credit card or bank info?

When you sign up for something free, and it asks for your cc info, you dont think , hey maybe Im gonna get charged for something down the line? Its not dishonest just because you are too lazy and dumb to read what you are signing up for, its the way most internet companies work. Even amazon does this with their super saver shipping thing, sign up and get free shipping for a few months, then if you dont cancel they charge you.

Edit: DIRECTLY under the credit card logos on the first page it reads
" I understand that the Skill-Drill content I am ordering is being sent by mail, and that I may request the content digitally. I understand that the Takedowns eBook is being sent electronically as soon as the DVD and SmartBJJ are ordered. I understand that my first month of SmartBJJ is free, and that each month afterwards it is $37, but that it may be dropped at any time – and SHOULD be dropped if I am unwilling to apply the exercises, interview insights / etc…"
In fact, it says it twice on the first page. Its not hidden on some back page you have to click through five pages to get to, its twice on the first page, directly below the credit card logos. Do you guys seriously consider that dishonest??

 

[beeran1]

Apparantly so.

Charging $x amount of dollar don't mean shit if your revenue < cost.

I guess I'd have to make another assumption about the # of students each gym has. Not sure what the average is; ours and the bigger ones around here have to have 75+, but that may not be realistic for everyone.

 

[Balto]

Ugh. What a bunch of BS. Is it really that hard to make a buck as an honest BJJ instructor? If your school is following the Lloyd way of thinking, memberships to your gym probably cost at least $170-180 (if not more), no?

It is truly hard to make a good living as a BJJ instructor. It's just not an inherently well paying field, so you need to work pretty hard if you want to make it into one.

Some professions are inherently well paying, so just being good at them is enough. If you are a truly skilled doctor, you can probably make a good living based on that alone. With BJJ, that is not the case. Our society values good BJJ teachers far less than good doctors.

This kind of trickery stuff does not actually help you make a good living as a BJJ instructor -- at least not long term. I'm skeptical that it really does even in the short term because a lot of the trick charges will end up reversed anyway, and the damage it does to the brand long term is likely much greater than the sum of the charges that actually stick.

 

[deadlizard]

I think the success of these marketing techniques is being greatly exaggerated -- especially this trickery stuff.

Just because people are using it does not mean it is successful. Let's be honest here; the guys using this stuff are not experienced business people. In fact, they were probably doing terrible in business before which is why they went to the business seminar in the first place.

You can't learn that much about business at a weekend seminar. The BJJ analogy here would be a bunch of random guys who went to a Royce seminar going back home and armbarring people. Of course they are going to be making huge mistakes and doing a lot of things incorrectly because they just don't have the experience to do things right yet. They might be better off than they were before the seminar, but that does not mean that they are considered good.

Tricking your customers is shortsighted. It can only work once. So if you're going to roll out business advice based around trickery, make sure you get plenty of value out of that one trick. Make sure you sell a slot at a business seminar for a few thousand dollars rather than selling a month subscription for $37 that will probably get charged back anyway.

The LI seminar is to sell LI marketing techniques to gym owners. To gain credibility with other gym owners, you need testimonials, which he clearly has even if it's bullshit.

Just look what happened to the real estate boom. You have frauds like Robert Kiyasaki telling you how easy it is to make money in real estate. You cannot turn on Sunday morning TV without at least seeing 10 different "get rich quick in real estate" infomercials.

The point of the LI system is not to make gym owner money, it's to sell LI's marketing system. Most gym owners do not understand this.

 

[goatfury]

Ugh. What a bunch of BS. Is it really that hard to make a buck as an honest BJJ instructor? If your school is following the Lloyd way of thinking, memberships to your gym probably cost at least $170-180 (if not more), no?

It is extremely difficult.

 

[beeran1]

Im confused. How is he charging you unless you already gave him your credit card or bank info?

When you sign up for something free, and it asks for your cc info, you dont think , hey maybe Im gonna get charged for something down the line? Its not dishonest just because you are too lazy and dumb to read what you are signing up for, its the way most internet companies work. Even amazon does this with their super saver shipping thing, sign up and get free shipping for a few months, then if you dont cancel they charge you.

The problem is that you are buying one thing (a DVD), and they are using your CC info to charge you for something completely separate (an online training program) without making it clear that you are buying into that (perpetually, I might add) as well. That's the difference. It would be like buying something from Amazon and then finding out that they enrolled you in a costly book-of-the-month club (if they have such a thing).

 

[beeran1]

It is extremely difficult.

That sucks; and to be clear, I was asking the question honestly, no sarcasm.

 

[Balto]

Im confused. How is he charging you unless you already gave him your credit card or bank info?

When you sign up for something free, and it asks for your cc info, you dont think , hey maybe Im gonna get charged for something down the line? Its not dishonest just because you are too lazy and dumb to read what you are signing up for, its the way most internet companies work. Even amazon does this with their super saver shipping thing, sign up and get free shipping for a few months, then if you dont cancel they charge you.

I'm not exactly sure how it is working in this case, but with Lovato you put in your credit card info to buy the DVD. Then you magically got charged again after a month based on some fine print automatically enrolling you in a subscription.

That is not the way legitimate companies work. When you sign up for Super Saver Shipping, you get billed for Super Saver Shipping if you don't cancel. You don't get billed for a box of toilet paper automatically sent to your house 30 days later because that was listed at the bottom of the page in fine print.

 

[dirtypablo]

The problem is that you are buying one thing (a DVD), and they are using your CC info to charge you for something completely separate (an online training program) without making it clear that you are buying into that (perpetually, I might add) as well. That's the difference. It would be like buying something from Amazon and then finding out that they enrolled you in a costly book-of-the-month club (if they have such a thing).

In bold bright letters-
"Get the DVD Now! Plus, Gain Instant Access to SmartBJJ:"

 

[Balto]

Im confused. How is he charging you unless you already gave him your credit card or bank info?

When you sign up for something free, and it asks for your cc info, you dont think , hey maybe Im gonna get charged for something down the line? Its not dishonest just because you are too lazy and dumb to read what you are signing up for, its the way most internet companies work. Even amazon does this with their super saver shipping thing, sign up and get free shipping for a few months, then if you dont cancel they charge you.

Edit: DIRECTLY under the credit card logos on the first page it reads
" I understand that the Skill-Drill content I am ordering is being sent by mail, and that I may request the content digitally. I understand that the Takedowns eBook is being sent electronically as soon as the DVD and SmartBJJ are ordered. I understand that my first month of SmartBJJ is free, and that each month afterwards it is $37, but that it may be dropped at any time

 

[middleaged]

As someone who has bought a fair number of DVDs, I can say with certainty that this is a great way to ensure that I will never buy your DVD.

 

[jaysculls]

Im confused. How is he charging you unless you already gave him your credit card or bank info?

When you sign up for something free, and it asks for your cc info, you dont think , hey maybe Im gonna get charged for something down the line? Its not dishonest just because you are too lazy and dumb to read what you are signing up for, its the way most internet companies work. Even amazon does this with their super saver shipping thing, sign up and get free shipping for a few months, then if you dont cancel they charge you.

Edit: DIRECTLY under the credit card logos on the first page it reads
" I understand that the Skill-Drill content I am ordering is being sent by mail, and that I may request the content digitally. I understand that the Takedowns eBook is being sent electronically as soon as the DVD and SmartBJJ are ordered. I understand that my first month of SmartBJJ is free, and that each month afterwards it is $37, but that it may be dropped at any time

 

[catchwrestle1]

I agree. Ken's stuff is very good and its very hard to monetize a youtube channel for such a niche market so I understand the need to branch out.

My biggest point of contention is the "bonus" membership that turns in to a $37/month charge if you don't cancel in time. I've heard the defense stating that is how internet business work, but to me, that is not a justification, it's just a restating of the problem.

Of course the monthly charge is explained in the fine print and then way below the Add to Cart link. It looks to be intentionally disguised or at least camouflaged.

People can make money in this industry, maybe not "Master Lloyd Money", but they can make a living marketing and advertising with integrity

Very well said.

 

[Balto]

I would be interested to know where this trickery idea is coming from exactly. It seems like it just popped up in BJJ over the last few months.

When I bought the Kimura Trap, there was none of this nonsense. Everything was straight up and fair. I got charged exactly what I expected, and when I ultimately sent it back, I got my refund quickly with no hassle. Honestly the customer service and integrity was better than most companies out there period. It built up some loyalty, and I'd consider buying other products from them in the future accordingly.

This subscription fine print trickery is something different altogether. For me it's a quick way to get on my list of guys never to buy from.

 

[dirtypablo]

Here is the issue I have...you do not have an option to JUST get the DVD you have to get the free membership as well and them opt out then after in hopes you don't forget after you check it out and decided you like it or don't. Which many people will want to opt out but will forget and then get mad. Yes they should have paid attention more but a lot of people will not.

Why not have a check box option to optionally do the free membership as well. The big advertisement is a FREE DVD that comes with a bonus 30 day membership BUT they still keep your CC on file and charge it if it passes 30 days. Why not just give the free 30 days.

I would understand if it was just a solo free 30 trial and then get charged.

But it's a free DVD with no option to not choose to select the membership as well and not even have to deal with canceling the membership.

It's the whole cross your fingers that people will forget they signed up for a free trial with even realizing they didn't know they were going to get charged.

I'm telling you right now...a lot of people aren't going to be prepared to get charged when it happens.

**AND I OWN A MEMBERSHIP SITE SINCE 2007...MINE AND JEAN JACQUE MACHADO'S WERE THE FIRST ONES EVER IN THE GRAPPLING SCENE**

So I know about this stuff before anyone even started jumping on this band wagon.

Its the same with the amazon super saver shipping thing when you sign up. You cant just click a box to not charge you after the 6 months or whatever when you are signing up, you have to go find it somewhere else in the site after you sign up.

I guess I can see where its a bit dishonest, I just have the habit of reading things before I put my credit card info on the net, and when someone offers me something for free I know there is usually a catch. Buy a cell phone and they try and include a 101 accessories, buy an appliance and they try and sell you a warranty you dont need etc. I think its pretty common for businesses to do stuff like this, and think you should just try and be a smart shopper.

 

[Balto]

Its the same with the amazon super saver shipping thing when you sign up. You cant just click a box to not charge you after the 6 months or whatever when you are signing up, you have to go find it somewhere else in the site after you sign up.

I guess I can see where its a bit dishonest, I just have the habit of reading things before I put my credit card info on the net, and when someone offers me something for free I know there is usually a catch. Buy a cell phone and they try and include a 101 accessories, buy an appliance and they try and sell you a warranty you dont need etc. I think its pretty common for businesses to do stuff like this, and think you should just try and be a smart shopper.

You have to affirmatively sign up for the Super Saver Shipping thing. You have the clear option to not sign up when you order stuff.

I order stuff from Amazon all the time, and I've never signed up for it. Amazon doesn't automatically enroll me in the free trial as part of the fine print. For me to get into the program, I have to clearly select the trial separate from my otherwise unrelated purchase.

 

[Rookie]

I would be interested to know where this trickery idea is coming from exactly. It seems like it just popped up in BJJ over the last few months.

When I bought the Kimura Trap, there was none of this nonsense. Everything was straight up and fair. I got charged exactly what I expected, and when I ultimately sent it back, I got my refund quickly with no hassle. Honestly the customer service and integrity was better than most companies out there period. It built up some loyalty, and I'd consider buying other products from them in the future accordingly.

This subscription fine print trickery is something different altogether. For me it's a quick way to get on my list of guys never to buy from.

That's because you bought the actual product. The DVD in this case is not the product they are selling. What they are selling is the online membership, just in a very indirect way.

for those that got the email, can you save the site as a PDF? I would be interested to see the differences between the sites we all get. Part of Lloyds marketing plan is to have different landing pages and different verbiage to determine which is the most successful. This is strictly for my own curiosity.

 

[Rookie]

Its the same with the amazon super saver shipping thing when you sign up. You cant just click a box to not charge you after the 6 months or whatever when you are signing up, you have to go find it somewhere else in the site after you sign up.

I guess I can see where its a bit dishonest, I just have the habit of reading things before I put my credit card info on the net, and when someone offers me something for free I know there is usually a catch. Buy a cell phone and they try and include a 101 accessories, buy an appliance and they try and sell you a warranty you dont need etc. I think its pretty common for businesses to do stuff like this, and think you should just try and be a smart shopper.

I have the exact same habit which is exactly how we ended up with this post. I immediately though of the Lovato fiasco and I want to help the Sherdog community avoid it.

Not everyone reads fine print and honestly, not everyone understands what is written in the fine print. Just b/c it's clear to you, that doesn't mean its going to be clear to everyone we consider part of this community that I think means a lot to us.

I don't post often, but I read here every day and I don't want anyone here to be deceived.

 

[Balto]

That's because you bought the actual product. The DVD in this case is not the product they are selling. What they are selling is the online membership, just in a very indirect way.

for those that got the email, can you save the site as a PDF? I would be interested to see the differences between the sites we all get. Part of Lloyds marketing plan is to have different landing pages and different verbiage to determine which is the most successful. This is strictly for my own curiosity.

Yeah I get that it's a fundamentally different type of product. It's more the deceptive indirect way that puzzles me.

The Kimura Trap was sold straight up. Sure there were teaser videos put out to promote it, but ultimately it was very clear exactly what you were buying and at what price.

The deceptive equivalent would be like a page all about a free DVD with some fine print at the bottom saying that if you don't send the DVD back within 30 days you automatically buy the Kimura Trap for $197.

 

[EGDM]

This is the kind of shit that disposable credit card numbers were invented for. It's a sad reality, but I don't buy anything online with my primary credit card number (except from AAA major retailers). For any kind of "free trial" I have my bank issue a temporary number with a $1 limit and 1 month expiration just in case something shady happens. Works like a charm.