Netflix: The Untold History of the United States - Oliver Stone

[BVG]

The US knew it could take mainland Japan and Tokyo -- they really didn't need to go nuclear despite the argument that it saved more US lives.

But, the other side is that they HAD to show the Russians they had the bomb (capabilities) in possession and were willing to use it. The US knew Russia and themselves would be the new bi-hegemony of the world and that Russia could also have access to Nazi information and perhaps their own version of the Szilárd letter.

The 2nd piece is that Manhattan project was the most cost extensive venture in world history to that point in time and the backers wanted some sort of ROI / demonstration for their dollars. That is in part why they used Little Boy (gun-type projectile reaction design) first, because they never tested it with the trinity demonstration and they wanted to see what the results were.

Fat Man was overkill -- but it did seem to motivate the emperor to concede.

The documentary clearly states that the war continued after Fatman, and that it wasn't until Russia entered Japan from the north that they realized it was a lost cause.

I tend to believe that version as I could see a bias in American history to suggest that the awe and might of America's technology on display forced a nation to give up.

That and the constant fire bombing which had more casualties wasn't stopping Japan from fighting.

1 bomb many casualties

versus

many small bombs and many casualties....is their really a difference?

Japan really didn't know what the hell they were being hit with. So I'm gonna side with the belief that Japan only stopped when they started getting fucked up the ass from Russia.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

The documentary clearly states that the war continued after Fatman, and that it wasn't until Russia entered Japan from the north that they realized it was a lost cause.

That doesn't counter the point that they didnt need to go nuclear to win -- Allied forces were going to take Japan no matter what, it wasn't a new revelation

and how do they rationalize / conclude it was Russia entering Manchukuo or the Pu Bomb? Both happened on the same day.

 

[Rusk]

Ironically, today Russia has more neo-Nazis than any other country; more than 50,000.

nope

 

[RockstarChris]

wait but countless movies and video games for decades have told us that Russia is the bad guy.....

 

[loyalyolayal]

This is all pretty much common knowledge to anyone with more than a glancing knowledge of WW2 and the closing events.

Historians are not even sure anymore if we needed to nuke Japan at all. The firebombing campaign was immensely effective and cheaper in comparison as the majority of Japanese civil engineering was not designed with sustained aerial bombardment in mind.

It was a very chaotic series of events near the end, especially within Japan, and much of the documentation that might shed light on these events were either destroyed deliberately or in firebombings.

What we do know for certain is that elements of the Japanese military government, including the Emperor, were seriously considering surrender if not before the first bomb dropped, certainly after it.

It was sending a message more to Russia than to Japan.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

I finished about halfway through this first episode. It does not seem to deviate that much from what is taught in schools. Hitler was aggressive, Japan is evil, Stalin was devious. Where does Stone deviate from conventional thinking?

 

[dissolved]

I watched his HBO documentary series and he had some interesting viewpoints of the early 1900s, but when it got into WWII and afterward it became laughably bad liberal propaganda, with sprinkles of truth added to the top, which the most effective propaganda does.

Basically, what HBO tried to do with recent events with 'The Newsroom,' Oliver Stone's documentary series tried to do with to the last century.

I literally was going to make this thread in the next day or so and was curious what a few like yourself thought of it.

I agree with Stone's bringing attention to the massive amount of loss that Russia suffered by the Germans - 27 million, by far the most of any country or people group. They should also be given more credit for stopping the Germans than they've been given. The horrors that they suffered also helps in understanding why they were and are such a tough people. Even Stalin was loved by his people. Though being harsh he pulled a people through their darkest period.

I agree that after Roosevelt Stone's characterization of things takes a turn.

I'm only into episode 5 or 6 but Oliver definitely singles out Truman as the start of "bad America." Stone certainly condemns Harry's use of the nuclear bomb and further testing. I felt a little unsure what to conclude with that as the development started much earlier than his presidency.

I was interested to read that Winston Churchill said that Stalin never renaged on his commitments to peace treaties.

Anyway, will likely watch and then rewatch this one. It does appear that Stone has somewhat of an agenda. Some makes sense, other parts I'm not so sure.

 

[KnightTemplar]

nope

Yup.

 

[dissolved]

Russia sustained the heaviest total(military and civilians)casualties of any nation in WWII. The exact number is still a matter of debate, but probably north of 19,000,000.

Ironically, today Russia has more neo-Nazis than any other country; more than 50,000.

Stone listed it at 27, 000, 000. But even at 19, 000, 000 that's like 3 times more than the next people-group.

 

[dissolved]

The US knew it could take mainland Japan and Tokyo -- they really didn't need to go nuclear despite the argument that it saved more US lives.

But, the other side is that they HAD to show the Russians they had the bomb (capabilities) in possession and were willing to use it. The US knew Russia and themselves would be the new bi-hegemony of the world and that Russia could also have access to Nazi information and perhaps their own version of the Szilárd letter.

The 2nd piece is that Manhattan project was the most cost extensive venture in world history to that point in time and the backers wanted some sort of ROI / demonstration for their dollars. That is in part why they used Little Boy (gun-type projectile reaction design) first, because they never tested it with the trinity demonstration and they wanted to see what the results were.

Fat Man was overkill -- but it did seem to motivate the emperor to concede.

I'm still not convinced that using the nuclear bombs didn't end the war sooner than if the US hadn't used them. It was a major signal to the world the devestating technology that the US had (Russia not being too many years behind in their development). This is something I'm going to have to look into more. Stone certainly almost demonizes Truman for going down and even encouraging the nuclear arms race.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

I literally was going to make this thread in the next day or so and was curious what a few like yourself thought of it.

I agree with Stone's bringing attention to the massive amount of loss that Russia suffered by the Germans - 27 million, by far the most of any country or people group. They should also be given more credit for stopping the Germans than they've been given. The horrors that they suffered also helps in understanding why they were and are such a tough people. Even Stalin was loved by his people. Though being harsh he pulled a people through their darkest period.

I agree that after Roosevelt Stone's characterization of things takes a turn.

I'm only into episode 5 or 6 but Oliver definitely singles out Truman as the start of "bad America." Stone certainly condemns Harry's use of the nuclear bomb and further testing. I felt a little unsure what to conclude with that as the development started much earlier than his presidency.

I was interested to read that Winston Churchill said that Stalin never renaged on his commitments to peace treaties.

Anyway, will likely watch and then rewatch this one. It does appear that Stone has somewhat of an agenda. Some makes sense, other parts I'm not so sure.

Two more points -

The closer the HBO series came to modern times, the more laughably left wing it becomes. Rush Limbaugh is made out to be Satan and given far too much credit for the direction of the Republican party. It really becomes a parody of itself.

And for Oliver Stone, when confronted with the historical inaccuracies of his films 'JFK' and 'The Doors,' he said "The films weren't meant to reflect the events as they happened ecactly, they were of what I imagined to have happened." (Paraphrasing)

With that quote in mind, that fully explains his HBO series, and the leftist mindset as a whole.

 

[dissolved]

Two more points -

The closer the HBO series came to modern times, the more laughably left wing it becomes. Rush Limbaugh is made out to be Satan and given far too much credit for the direction of the Republican party. It really becomes a parody of itself.

And for Oliver Stone, when confronted with the historical inaccuracies of his films 'JFK' and 'The Doors,' he said "The films weren't meant to reflect the events as they happened ecactly, they were of what I imagined to have happened." (Paraphrasing)

With that quote in mind, that fully explains his HBO series, and the leftist mindset as a whole.

One thing that I found a bit odd is the constant use of cinematic recreations of war and the related politics (obviously made at later dates). I'm not convinced that Hollywood makes many films where the narrative can be trusted, even back then. He even makes mention of several celebrity activists including Reagan. But overall, even back then, it seems like the celebrity crowd is consistently deluded.

Again, I'll need to watch this series over. As you said, the first and 2nd world war stuff seemed generally accurate but he starts to demonstrate a socialist leaning with his high esteem of Wallace etc. I'm just getting into these parts of the series.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

I'm still not convinced that using the nuclear bombs didn't end the war sooner than if the US hadn't used them. It was a major signal to the world the devestating technology that the US had (Russia not being too many years behind in their development). This is something I'm going to have to look into more. Stone certainly almost demonizes Truman for going down and even encouraging the nuclear arms race.

The nuclear arms race was going to happen regardless, due to Hahn and Strassmann findings on fission and the Einstein-Szilard letters warning the world of the possibility of the german bomb -- the US also found out the russians were working on the capabilities in 43 and actually started working on it in 39. So i think it was going to happen regardless, the US was just in the most advantageous position to make it happen in the first place.

Im also not buying the downplaying of the usage in ending the pacific war. People can argue the Russian invasion was the cause but the nagasaki and the Russian invasion happened on the same day -- so how do you really know? Add in the fact that Japan thought the US had dozens of more bombs ready to go due to bad information, it makes it that much harder to pinpoint the real main reason to their conceding. Also, have to remember that the emperor's announcement was delayed due to an attempted coup d'état -- so i too, do not entirely believe it was the Russians and not the bomb that tipped Japan.

I just agree with the fact that the US did not have to use it to win -- that they knew it was going to go in their favor regardless.

They did have to show the world (Russia) that they had the bomb first and not to have thoughts about crossing the pacific if they felt the urge.

 

[dissolved]

The nuclear arms race was going to happen regardless, due to Hahn and Strassmann findings on fission and the Einstein-Szilard letters warning the world of the possibility of the german bomb -- the US also found out the russians were working on the capabilities in 43 and actually started working on it in 39. So i think it was going to happen regardless, the US was just in the most advantageous position to make it happen in the first place.

Im also not buying the downplaying of the usage in ending the pacific war. People can argue the Russian invasion was the cause but the nagasaki and the Russian invasion happened on the same day -- so how do you really know? Add in the fact that Japan thought the US had dozens of more bombs ready to go due to bad information, it makes it that much harder to pinpoint the real main reason to their conceding. Also, have to remember that the emperor's announcement was delayed due to an attempted coup d'état -- so i too, do not entirely believe it was the Russians and not the bomb that tipped Japan.

I just agree with the fact that the US did not have to use it to win -- that they knew it was going to go in their favor regardless.

They did have to show the world (Russia) that they had the bomb first and not to have thoughts about crossing the pacific if they felt the urge.

I guess I've not really thought and looked into the use in depth. I've always thought it was fairly necessary. Also, hindsight is 20/20 and I'm not sure all the lasting effects of nuclear weaponry was understood yet.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

I guess I've not really thought and looked into the use in depth. I've always thought it was fairly necessary. Also, hindsight is 20/20 and I'm not sure all the lasting effects of nuclear weaponry was understood yet.

I have been on a pretty big history of nuclear armament research kick over the past year and read some pretty interesting facts. Fermi, Oppenheimer and Feynman all were aware of the pandora's box they were opening with developing the capabilities, they just were full on lied to about who it was going to be used against -- the Germans. They full out thought the Germans were well on their way to obtaining the capabilities -- but many historians believe Heisenberg when faced with the possibility of a german controlled nuclear bomb, did everything he could to drag the german side down from actually completing it. Even to go as far as a meeting with Bohr in attempt to clandestinely make note that the German would not make the bomb and thus in hopes of America not to use the bomb. (although Bohr apparently took it the wrong way). Of course, this has been disputed and some believe that the germans simply did not have the ability to seperate the isotopes needed to effectively produce a suitable super critical mass needed for a usable bomb.

Of course, all of this goes out the window because the powers at be within nations had a new super toy -- but i dont think they cared that it would cause other nations to follow suit.

 

[dissolved]

I have been on a pretty big history of nuclear armament research kick over the past year and read some pretty interesting facts. Fermi, Oppenheimer and Feynman all were aware of the pandora's box they were opening with developing the capabilities, they just were full on lied to about who it was going to be used against -- the Germans. They full out thought the Germans were well on their way to obtaining the capabilities -- but many historians believe Heisenberg when faced with the possibility of a german controlled nuclear bomb, did everything he could to drag the german side down from actually completing it. Even to go as far as a meeting with Bohr in attempt to clandestinely make note that the German would not make the bomb and thus in hopes of America not to use the bomb. (although Bohr apparently took it the wrong way). Of course, this has been disputed and some believe that the germans simply did not have the ability to seperate the isotopes needed to effectively produce a suitable super critical mass needed for a usable bomb.

Of course, all of this goes out the window because the powers at be within nations had a new super toy -- but i dont think they cared that it would cause other nations to follow suit.

I think Stone touched on the deception/lie about the German development and its use. I have to look into this more. Interesting stuff.

 

[VivaRevolution]

I finished about halfway through this first episode. It does not seem to deviate that much from what is taught in schools. Hitler was aggressive, Japan is evil, Stalin was devious. Where does Stone deviate from conventional thinking?

The first episode should be on the spanish-American war and the false flag that was used to draw us into that war.

The interesting parts on the cold war come after WWII when Stone documents pretty well, that US government policy was crazy aggressive towards the USSR, and that we shunned multiple attempts at cooling tensions, and ending the cold war. Basically the idea is that the US was the cause of the cold war, and Stone documents it pretty well here.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

The first episode should be on the spanish-American war and the false flag that was used to draw us into that war.

The interesting parts on the cold war come after WWII when Stone documents pretty well that US government policy was crazy aggressive towards the USSR, and that we shunned multiple attempts at cooling tensions, and ending the cold war. Basically the idea is that the US was the cause of the cold war, and Stone documents it pretty well here.

I heard somewhere that he made a documentary that was all conspiracy theory and that.

 

[dissolved]

The first episode should be on the spanish-American war and the false flag that was used to draw us into that war.

The interesting parts on the cold war come after WWII when Stone documents pretty well that US government policy was crazy aggressive towards the USSR, and that we shunned multiple attempts at cooling tensions, and ending the cold war. Basically the idea is that the US was the cause of the cold war, and Stone documents it pretty well here.

I'm quite right-leaning, but this is what I gather and it seems fairly accurate. Again, Chamberlain even said Stalin didn't break any peace agreements. But I don't know enough of the details and need to rewatch plus do more reading on the topic.

It reminds me a lot of today and Trump's willingness to forge relations with Russia while Hillary seemed bent on war.

 

[VivaRevolution]

I heard somewhere that he made a documentary that was all conspiracy theory and that.

As opposed to approved theories, with MSM talking heads parroting propaganda, or the big 3, k-12 textbook producers approved history?