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Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Arkain2K, Aug 12, 2016.
When Greece is paying the bills... well thats all there is to say.
My point is that if the US withdrew its defensive umbrella, only one or two bad actors could force everyone to spend much more than 2%.
The Nato is obsolete anyway.
Europe's and the US interest will just further drift apart even more. Going into those useless wars is not part of European foreign policies.
We sort of had to go with the US because they protected us from the Soviets. But they are gone.
We should make our own defense alliance in Europe, Nuclear weapons and everything. And only represent European interest.
The US is a failing empire and the worst thing is they haven even realized that yet. Let them finance 10 aircraft carriers if they want to play world police.
Getting sucked into wars with a country that is solely controlled by financial interest is nothing we should be part of anymore.
It is a different time now. Next generation of German politicians won't have any relation to WW2 anymore.
We have the money, we have the technology only thing we need is political will and Germany and the other Europen countries will be more than able to defend themselves.
the Bundeswehr is laughable tbh, and since they removed two of the remaining 4 IN Brigades in Germany (my unit the 170th in Baumholder and the uh 172nd /3rd in Graf, leaving 1/4 in Hohenfels and 2nd SCR in Vilseck if they're still there) germany would have serious issues if someone like Turkey or god forbid Russia actually stepped to them
we had these two monster hills our base that the Germans stopped trying to go up b/c their equipment was so old/outdated that it often couldn't make it....no hyperbole
Yeah no hyperbole, that was already showing when I did my military service almost 15 years ago. And it has only been getting worse.
You get what you pay for. I would like to see Germany military budget somewhere around 3% long term.
My guess is the bad actor who triggers a new arm race is much more likely to be Asian. If that's the case, there's no real reason for the European freeloaders to suddenly have a change of heart and begins spending, even if we diverts our vast military resources from the North Atlantic to the West Pacific.
I think it's long overdue for a formal Asia-Pacific Treaty Organization with the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and South Korea. Those allies are certainly ramping up their defense budget now that the neighborhood bully is taking over their backyards and directly impeding in their national interests by demanding sovereignty over important shipping lanes in international waters.
Estonia is punking all those deadbeat countries
Darn Europe rediscover your balls.
Germany will not rearm. They can't handle losing again.
Without at all disagreeing with your point about Asia, it wouldn't take much at all for Russia or Byelorussia or Turkey or Serbia to cause plenty of trouble. It sure as hell isn't fear of the french or Germans keeping anyone in line. It's fear of the US. If the US were to back out of Atlantic military commitments, which I think they should, unless they are with the UK and perhaps a few Eastern European states like Poland, I think we could see trouble develop at the outskirts of the EU fairly quickly.
While I agree Germany should pay the 2% or everyone else because that was agreed on.
It is not entirely only Germanys fault. If you don't stop telling people they are solely responsible for WW1 and WW2 and dismantle any kind of relation toward Prussia military honor and practices.
It is not exactly surprising when you end up with the outcome that the people are hesitant to spend money on their military.
It's not that Germany is trying to get out of paying for something. It pays more than its fair share to all other international organizations.
But it will take a generation or two to recover from the decades of effort to dismantle any German military structure.
Even if that effort might be justified. It is difficult to have it both ways.
Why can't both be true?
1) President Trump thinks NATO is obsolete, but he's willing to keep it going to alleviate our protectorates allies' concerns.
2) The overwhelming majority of NATO countries think NATO is still needed, and wants the U.S to continue leading it, but refuses to pay their share to keep it going.
Those two facts are not inconsistent in anyway, shape, or form. And they're both happening, much to America's chagrin.
If you disagree with Trump that "NATO is obsolete", that's more reason for you to pay your dues to keep it going. That's simple logic, right??
If you agrees with Trump that "NATO is obsolete", you're welcome to withdraw from the club and save that 2% GDP for other things. Why stay and then try to wiggles out of paying your fair share??
Trump is not going to be nice or quiet about the deadbeats of the Alliance continuing their freeloading, and it's extremely disingenuous for our allies to expect the United States to continue leading the Alliance, while 23 out of 28 of them are offering up lame excuses to try to get somebody else to pick up their share of the bill, the share that THEY agreed to pay, year after year after year.
Can't do 2% this year? No problem! Man up, call for a general meeting, officially announce to the club that you cannot pay 2%, request to have the remaining balance deferred to next year, then pay that remaining balance next year.
Can't do 2% this decade? No problem! Man up, call for a general meeting, officially announce to the club that you cannot pay 2%, request everyone else to have their pledged amounts reduce to 1.5% across the board, then pay that 1.5%.
But if this comedy of only 5 out of 28 members of the club are willing to pay their pledged amount kept on going, the rest can watch NATO falls apart in their lifetime, when America is finally fed up.
I'm okay either way, to be honest. We like Alliances, but what we need are strong and responsible Allies, not world powers pretending to be helpless Protectorates.
Estonia is doomed itself though. Barely 1 million people. No real identity except anti russian propaganda and anti eurasian sentiments.
Estonia is shrinking in population and when you are barely over 1 million in population that isn't good.
It certainly seems that way.
Grow some balls euro's
(does not include the British Poland Estonia and greece)
Europe ought to take care of its own defense. If we have billions to spare for every person walking across our borders, then we should atleast be capable of building a defense of our own, while retaining the "social welfare state".
The primary role of a state is to ensure the protection of its citizens. Everything else comes secondary. Including social welfare.
What do the women look like there? If they look decent, some sherdoggers should get a team together and ask the Estonian government for money to repopulate their country.
I agree, but why? Because you are making the same mistakes without even realizing it. Learn from us.
Riiiiight. Until Europe needs the US to save their asses, AGAIN.
Making everyone pay fairly is "ridiculously stupid." Are you daft man?