MYTHS v. FACTS: Cal State Professor Explains Border Situation

[luckyshot]

Almost stopped reading at "Cal stae professor" but gave it a shot. I wish I'd gone with my instincts.

It just the same old, guilt inducing "oh the children" bullshit.

What the fuck article did you read?

The one I posted was all about when certainly laws and policies actually went into effect and what they actually say.

 

[Rygu]

Lol, yeah there's no violence to flee in Mexico. its not like mayors get assassinated left and right and cartels run things.

Btw Honduras had a coup in 2009(which the US supported of course) which led to political unrest that persist to this day with the military police killing members of the opposition as recently as last year.

So yeah, ya don't know what you;re talking about ya goof.

Cartels aren't everywhere in Mexico, or even close. That's like fleeing America because there's a lot of gun violence in Chicago.

 

[nac386]

Almost stopped reading at "Cal stae professor" but gave it a shot. I wish I'd gone with my instincts.

It just the same old, guilt inducing "oh the children" bullshit.

We have a way in this country that children are managed when their living situation is compromised, their is abuse etc etc etc Its the same with non citizens. Kids are remanded to DHS. As an illegal immigrant, you are homeless, jobless and have 0 resources available to you. All of you would suggest removing kids from that situation if it were any other story.

Take a look at how many people cross the border every day. What are we supposed to do? How many families can we just house on the taxpayer dime?

Like it or not, we are not an open borders country. We cannot just let everyone who shows up with a kid have a free pass because they have a kid. Its ridiculous.

The entire point here is that you can come to whatever conclusion you want, but come to that conclusion based on actual facts and not myths. How many times have you heard people on this forum say "But Obama was separating children for 8 years and nobody cared, so they are all faking"?

There's nothing wrong with coming to the conclusion you've come to. The article is just dispelling some common myths going around. It's basically just a person fact-checking. If you disagree with those facts, prove them wrong.

 

[Seano]

What the fuck article did you read?

The one I posted was all about when certainly laws and policies actually went into effect and what they actually say.

I was ok with the first half of it. Then I got to the part about DHS. Sorry, thats how it works for citizens too. Don't bring kids to a country that puts the welfare of kids over that of the parents.

This problem is deeper than just "kids being separated from mom." Like I pointed out- crying girl from that pic has a father who didn't know she was being taken. Maybe he has rights. Maybe these people that drag these kids halfway across the world don't have those kids best interests at heart.

We all agree that the best thing is if the families end up together and live happy lives in america but pointing out that kids in these situations go to DHS like any other kid would is just more boohoo bullshit.

the intention of the article is to make me only see the one side, I guess is what I'm saying in a long assed, round about way.

 

[luckyshot]

If they are currently separating them to the levels that is being claimed, then how come poster crying girl was detained and never actually separated from her mother at all?

This question is a non-sequitur.

If they were together during the entire detainment, how likely is it that many other stories are also false or exaggerated?.

According to the Trump administration's own numbers:

Trump administration officials said Tuesday that 2,342 children have been separated from 2,206 parents at the US-Mexico border between May 5 and June 9 as part of the Trump administration’s “zero tolerance” policy of prosecuting people who cross the border illegally.
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/19/17479138/how-many-families-separated-border-immigration

In what way would you expect thousands attempting to enter the country illegally be treated?

I would expect them to be treated as legitimate asylum seekers unless and until it is shown that they are something other.

If you lighten punishment, and say "oh we got you ok go back across the border", then what stops anyone from just trying every day until they get in?

Attempting to re-entry a country illegally after you have been deported is a criminal offense punishable by imprisonment. This is already the law.

 

[spamking]

So is the root of this issue truly the separation of kids from legit parents or the way kids are being housed regardless of status?

Would folks spewing outrage over the separations also then blame Trump if a kid was left with someone who wasn't their legit parent and was harmed?

 

[Seano]

The entire point here is that you can come to whatever conclusion you want, but come to that conclusion based on actual facts and not myths. How many times have you heard people on this forum say "But Obama was separating children for 8 years and nobody cared, so they are all faking"?

There's nothing wrong with coming to the conclusion you've come to. The article is just dispelling some common myths going around. It's basically just fact checking.

My understanding is that because people are being prosecuted, they are separated from family until the asylum process is finished. Thats how it would work for a citizen being detained for a crime too. We don't house children in adult facilities and I still don't agree we should. (yes even though Trump agreed. *gasp*)

These points are not our solution. Our solution is proper immigration reform and proper border control. We should have tough laws for people who try to circumvent our legal system.

And honestly, these kids probably should be taken away from their parents until proper verification and documentation occurs.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Cartels aren't everywhere in Mexico, or even close. That's like fleeing America because there's a lot of gun violence in Chicago.

Have you considered the the people fleeing are probably from the violent areas?

 

[sambobeer]

so you want to give full control of immigration to 1 state...jesus you're a fucking wacko

well, we're the largest state that is keeping insolvent red states afloat with our federal tax money/welfare and our giant economy. I think we deserve to call the shots since we make all the money and have all the power. When Mississippi or Texas get off their lazy asses and start making something of themselves then maybe they can have a say in things.

 

[nac386]

My understanding is that because people are being prosecuted, they are separated from family until the asylum process is finished. Thats how it would work for a citizen being detained for a crime too. We don't house children in adult facilities and I still don't agree we should. (yes even though Trump agreed. *gasp*)

These points are not our solution. Our solution is proper immigration reform and proper border control. We should have tough laws for people who try to circumvent our legal system.

And honestly, these kids probably should be taken away from their parents until proper verification and documentation occurs.

I don't think allowing the kids to stay with their parents suddenly puts them at risk, even if it turns out on rare occasions that they are not with their real parents. They have already traveled, unmonitored with these people claiming to be their parents. Putting them into a monitored detention center is already more safe than the situation they were just in.

I agree though that all of this is a huge distraction from what should be the focus, which is proper immigration reform. The system sucks, and we spend all this time talking about the crappy details instead of completely reforming. But I don't think that is going to happen because whatever Trump suggests will be blocked by democrats, probably regardless of how good or bad it is.

 

[luckyshot]

I was ok with the first half of it. Then I got to the part about DHS. Sorry, thats how it works for citizens too. Don't bring kids to a country that puts the welfare of kids over that of the parents.

This problem is deeper than just "kids being separated from mom." Like I pointed out- crying girl from that pic has a father who didn't know she was being taken. Maybe he has rights. Maybe these people that drag these kids halfway across the world don't have those kids best interests at heart.

We all agree that the best thing is if the families end up together and live happy lives in america but pointing out that kids in these situations go to DHS like any other kid would is just more boohoo bullshit.

the intention of the article is to make me only see the one side, I guess is what I'm saying in a long assed, round about way.

I think the point of the DHS paragraph is that by entering all these people into the criminal justice system (as Trump administration has done with its "zero tolerance policy") as opposed to dealing with them in civil court, these kids are going to be entered into the ORR system (Office of Refugee Resettlement)-- which is going to end up costing everyone a lot of time and money, and it is going to keep the kids separated from the parents for a long time.

So in other words, you really aren't looking to discuss the topic at hand in the thread you created, and are looking to share information from your side of the table. Understood.

What do you mean? I gave an answer to every question you asked except the first one-- which I don't know how to answer because it is a genuine non-sequitur.

So is the root of this issue truly the separation of kids from legit parents or the way kids are being housed regardless of status?

To me, the issue is the separation. I think they kids and families need to be kept together. I'd expect the conditions to be basic but humane-- something like a refugee camp.

Would folks spewing outrage over the separations also then blame Trump if a kid was left with someone who wasn't their legit parent and was harmed?

This seems to be a false dichotomy:

A. Don't separate kids from their parents.
B. IF you have reason to believe a kid is not with a parent but with some sort of smuggler, separate them at that point.
C. If you know a kid is with a smuggler, and do nothing, and the kid is harmed, then that would become your fault.

 

[Rygu]

Have you considered the the people fleeing are probably from the violent areas?

Of course they are, and I don't blame them. But not everyone can pile up in America. There has to be a limit.

 

[Bloodworth]

A professor at cal state has zero credibility

 

[ShadowRun]

Oh so ......
https:/en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reno_v._Flores#1997_settlement_agreement
“On July 24, 2015, U.S. District Judge Dolly M. Gee of the Central District of California found that the consent decree applied equally to accompanied and unaccompanied minors, that holding women and children for up to 20 days "may fall within the parameters" of the Flores settlement, and that immigration officials violated the consent decree by refusing to release accompanied minors held in a family detention facility “

 

[Fawlty]

When confronted with truth, ad hom endlessly

 

[Islam Imamate]

Of course they are, and I don't blame them. But not everyone can pile up in America. There has to be a limit.

That's fine but that's distinct from this comment

Myth: Asylum seekers from Mexico and Central America are fleeing war. There are no wars going on there. Syrians are fleeing war and are actual asylum seekers as their country is being bombed to shit.

Wanting to leave your shithole country does not make you an asylum seeker.

Which is objectively wrong as there is unfortunately a lot of political violence in Central America.

 

[sambobeer]

A professor at cal state has zero credibility

aww that's cute, the lil fella from the red state has his feels hurt.

 

[ultramanhyata]

This thread is proving to be one of the most pathetic collections of Trumpublican can posts I have yet seen.

I also don't understand why Trump supporters aren't owning this new enforcement policy as Trump's and using it as an example of how he has the guts to do border security much differently than Obama.

Come on, Team Deplorable. You're missing a huge opportunity to give Donny credit and sing his praises. You can do better.

 

[Rygu]

This thread is proving to be one of the most pathetic collections of Trumpublican can posts I have yet seen.

I also don't understand why Trump supporters aren't owning this new enforcement policy as Trump's and using it as an example of how he has the guts to do border security much differently than Obama.

Come on, Team Deplorable. You're missing a huge opportunity to give Donny credit and sing his praises. You can do better.

What a solid contribution to the thread. I never looked at it that way before. Changed my life.

 

[MaxMMA]

I didn't look into any of these "myths" or "facts" but seeing as how all the "facts" appear to make trump and Republicans look bad, and make dems/libs look good, I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume these "facts" aren't really facts.