My Socialist leaning Sherbro's, help me understand this one?

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by MikeMcMann, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. MikeMcMann

    MikeMcMann Silver Belt

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    A female friend of mine forwarded me this article ...

    Having children lowers women’s lifetime earnings, an outcome known as the “child penalty”

    I replied to it with

    ...without a doubt. Anything that takes you out of the work force for long periods of time and anything that changes your focus from work to other will lower lifetime earnings and that is not a bad thing. That is the balance trade off for those who want kids.

    We went back and forth a bit and ultimately she told me she cannot agree. That women should not pay a penalty for choosing to have children.

    That was even after I gave her a direct example from my office place as we had two people celebrate 5 years anniversaries with us who work in the same jobs. Both are similar aged (early 30's) but one has had 3 kids in 5 years and only been in the office physically 2 years and the other is a workaholic young guy who takes every minute of over time available and has got several bonuses due to hard work and dedication. In the same 5 years span he has worked 2.5 times more than her but he has made about 3.5 times more with bonuses.

    I asked her if she thought the woman who choose to be a mom should just be levelled up in pay to what he is making or if he should make less. I also said she might be happier and have more balance in her life even if he has more money and that should be ok.

    In the end she still said she disagreed with my position and does not believe it is right for women to be penalized for having children.

    Socialist leaning sherbro's where do you stand on this?

    (btw I cannot even read the article beyond the teaser portion as it is stuck behind a pay wall for me since I once subscribed to the Economist and now I cannot see articles free. So my reaction is not to the body of the article)
     
  2. Rational Poster

    Rational Poster Scourge of the War Room

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    I'm not sure how this is a socialist issue.
     
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  3. BudKing8806

    BudKing8806 Purple Belt

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    It only makes sense if you take off to care for a child. I think she's reaching. Most women who only take the 8 weeks leave and return to work don't have this issue. If you take 6 months off for every kid then fuck no you aren't going to earn the same as someone who hasn't taken that much time off.
     
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  4. MayhemMonkey

    MayhemMonkey ... Im kind of a big deal!

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    maternity pay will help..... is that even a thing in America?

    https://www.gov.uk/maternity-pay-leave/pay
    thats how it works in the UK
     
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  5. Headkicktoleg

    Headkicktoleg Gold Belt

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    Well women will still get paid in the UK, and this is something I think American needs to do better with, but obviously missing work will affect your ability to get raises and promotions, which from the OP it seems the woman he was talking to thinks is unfair. I'm not sure why she thinks women should get free raises and promotions while they are away on maternity leave.
     
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  6. sub_thug

    sub_thug Silver Belt

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    Sounds like the woman you are talking to wants to have her cake and eat it too.

    I love feminism when it's fighting for people to have a choice. If you are a woman who wants to be totally career-oriented without a spouse or kids instead of playing homemaker, then you are absolutely free to do so. If you want to be homemaker and raise kids, then that's cool too. If you are the kind of feminist who wants to be a workaholic CEO while being an omnipresent Supermom to 3 kids and still have time to work out so you get that Instagram body, then you're just a moron who doesn't understand one of the most basic concepts about being an adult: You need to make choices in life, completing some goals at the expense of doing other things. You can whine all day and demand socialism as much as you want, but you're still just an entitled idiot.
     
  7. Gutter Chris

    Gutter Chris Chiropteran Enthusiast

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    i think UBI for stay at home moms/parents would be a fine law to pass. it would seem to me that you would create a better and more stable society with more parental involvement and less daycare

    Maternity leave laws are good too

    I agree women should not be penalized for wanting to raise children but I also think there is only so much you can do to help the situation out . but we should because I think the natives breeding and populating a country is better than imports . And before anyone gets upset I mean the folks who live there already regardless of race not white people
     
  8. Headkicktoleg

    Headkicktoleg Gold Belt

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    BUT IT'S NOT FAIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

    these idiots need to put 1/2 a thought into what they want.

    Say women magically got raises and promotions while on maternity leave to keep up with their peers who don't miss work. The moment business slows down and it's time for cuts they are the first ones out the door because they are unqualified and overpaid.
     
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  9. MayhemMonkey

    MayhemMonkey ... Im kind of a big deal!

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    also from the article.... they are entitled to pay rises. But obviously wouldnt be in the running for promotions as they are off work at the time. But they lose no employment rights just because they have a baby.
     
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  10. Gunny

    Gunny Silver Belt

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    I’m certainly no socialist but I think your friend’s point has some merit. First, I assume we can all agree that attentive, present mothers are vastly important for children’s development and, by extension, society at large. Well my personal observation in business is that many of the most competent and conscious women are the exact type that is most likely to pause their career to attend to children. The problem is that when they try to reenter their career they are not only placed at the bottom of the totem pole, they are placed there as a middle aged individual. Meanwhile many less competent people who may have neglected parental responsibilities have been promoted multiple times. Point being, it’s not only a matter of fairness. It’s also a problem in missassesing talent and ability.
     
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  11. Headkicktoleg

    Headkicktoleg Gold Belt

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    Sorry I didn't mean cost of living adjustments, that's fine, I was talking about something like Joe got a 10% raise for doing such a great job type raise.
     
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  12. sub_thug

    sub_thug Silver Belt

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    What do you think when both parents choose to stay at home after having a child instead of going back to work at menial jobs for similar money?
     
  13. MayhemMonkey

    MayhemMonkey ... Im kind of a big deal!

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    ah right, my bad.
     
  14. Headkicktoleg

    Headkicktoleg Gold Belt

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    When you look at it from the companies perspective, where else would they put them? You can't just give someone who left the workforce as say a first level manager then give them a directors job when they reenter the workforce just because they had kids and took off from working for a few years. It doesn't make any sense.
     
  15. MikeMcMann

    MikeMcMann Silver Belt

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    Why do you use the word 'penalized' there.

    If I choose in my first 5 years of my career to take 3 years to go travel and another person decides to be a workaholic in those same 5 years, then I am not penalized by making less. I might even be happier and more balanced in my life despite living longer.

    I think simply characterizing this issue as 'women being penalized' is drinking the koolaide and accepting political rhetoric.
     
  16. MayhemMonkey

    MayhemMonkey ... Im kind of a big deal!

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    if they are the most qualified for the job then why cant you?
     
  17. Headkicktoleg

    Headkicktoleg Gold Belt

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    How could she be the most qualified if she hasn't been working for years?
     
  18. ScottE

    ScottE Blue Belt

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    We as a society need people having kids.

    We as a society benefit most if those kids are well cared for.

    Parental involvement, particularly in the beginning, has been shown to be hugely beneficial to child development.

    I don't think this is rocket science. Parental leave, maternal and paternal leave, shouldn't not be so comically rare and penalizing as it is in this country.
     
  19. MayhemMonkey

    MayhemMonkey ... Im kind of a big deal!

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    are we still talking about the example from the OP? Im not sure who you mean?

    edit: if you are its pretty easy. Maybe she has qualities that the other candidates dont. Maybe she has better qualifications, better communication skills etc

    theres multiple factors that should be considered when people get promoted, not just who has longest tenure
     
  20. Headkicktoleg

    Headkicktoleg Gold Belt

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    From @Gunny post it sounded like he was talking about a mother staying home for a few years to raise the kid until they started school.
     

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