My petition to allow gloveless MMA in PA to reduce brain trauma

[ThunderL1ps]

That's a tough sacred cow to overcome.

If it were combined with no strikes on the ground, you may have something there, but I think it will be just as tough to change.

The former matchmaker of the UFC John Perretti thought that strikes to the head on the ground was the equivalent of a hammer hitting a piece of metal on an anvil, with the brain being the metal.

Basically original Pancrase was the best in terms of safety for the fighters.

 

[ThunderL1ps]

this.. as a professional fighter we just need better gloves pride gloves were amazing who ever broke there hands n pride? gloveless mma helps grapplers alot which is good but youll see crazy eye pokes deadly eye gouging would ensue not a good idea man

Fedor broke his hand in PRIDE. More than once if memory serves me correctly, but that is likely from his technique.

 

[NHB7]

They’re going to ask for the scientific research you have that proves MMA gloves lead to significantly more brain damage than a bare fist and not just conjecture or even well thought out hypothesis. And my guess is you don’t have a load of articles detailing it. So perhaps your first petition should be a demand that more research be done on brain safety in MMA.

Because if you can’t prove that bare fists are significantly safer for preventing brain damage then all your really doing is making MMA significantly more dangerous for hand health. Bare knuckle boxers use to experience life long damage and pain in their hands.

 

[AronaBeatsJones]

If you're looking for a branding suggestion, go with "Freehand MMA" as opposed to "Gloveless MMA."

 

[Rav7n]

Dumbass.
Why not wrap their hands in barbed wire and call it ecw.

 

[TheFakeMacoy]

They’re going to ask for the scientific research you have that proves MMA gloves lead to significantly more brain damage than a bare fist and not just conjecture or even well thought out hypothesis. And my guess is you don’t have a load of articles detailing it. So perhaps your first petition should be a demand that more research be done on brain safety in MMA.

Because if you can’t prove that bare fists are significantly safer for preventing brain damage then all your really doing is making MMA significantly more dangerous for hand health. Bare knuckle boxers use to experience life long damage and pain in their hands.

They would probably ask for that, but that would be impossible to obtain reasonable evidence without being able to have a promotion that does it, if talking specifically about MMA. I suppose if you had to design a study, the closest thing would be to compare something like bare knuckle boxing to regular boxing, then look at incidence or prevalence rates of CTE. You'd have to do a cohort study, rather than a randomized-control study. I expect you'd need pretty large numbers to power it, as well.

 

[Spaghetta]

That's a tough sacred cow to overcome.

If it were combined with no strikes on the ground, you may have something there, but I think it will be just as tough to change.

The former matchmaker of the UFC John Perretti thought that strikes to the head on the ground was the equivalent of a hammer hitting a piece of metal on an anvil, with the brain being the metal.

Basically original Pancrase was the best in terms of safety for the fighters.

Did original Pancrase not have strikes on the ground? I thought the rule set was fairly similar to what was outlined in this thread but I'm not sure. And I agree completely, getting mounted and hit is awful, bouncing your head off the floor isn't too good, with or without gloves.

They’re going to ask for the scientific research you have that proves MMA gloves lead to significantly more brain damage than a bare fist and not just conjecture or even well thought out hypothesis. And my guess is you don’t have a load of articles detailing it. So perhaps your first petition should be a demand that more research be done on brain safety in MMA.

Because if you can’t prove that bare fists are significantly safer for preventing brain damage then all your really doing is making MMA significantly more dangerous for hand health. Bare knuckle boxers use to experience life long damage and pain in their hands.

There is a lot of data that points to bare knuckle being safer than gloved. I do agree completely that it isn't a perfect solution, some of the other ideas suggested such as no closed fist strikes on the ground might combat hand damage as well.

If you're looking for a branding suggestion, go with "Freehand MMA" as opposed to "Gloveless MMA."

Freehand sounds pretty good, haven't heard that before. Thanks for the suggestion.

Dumbass.
Why not wrap their hands in barbed wire and call it ecw.

Because barbed wire causes more damage than bare fists, dumbass.

 

[NHB7]

There is a lot of data that points to bare knuckle being safer than gloved. I do agree completely that it isn't a perfect solution, some of the other ideas suggested such as no closed fist strikes on the ground might combat hand damage as well.

I don’t think there is a “lot of data” supporting this because I don’t think there’s been a lot of research on the brains of deceased bareknuckle boxers or even their late stage health.

So right now there is only well thought out hypotheses such as “Without gloves people hit less hard to avoid hand damage. Hitting less hard should lead to less brain damage.” Seems like a fair hypothesis, except that there has been research on sparring which is usually done with less power and the research has shown just as much or at times even more damage to the brain.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.he...s/news-story/258aa1bd5e7d7823d3ddb102310f1dba

Because it’s less about how hard a hit is (albeit that is bad too), but simply the frequent, repeated, fast rotation of the head that causes the brain to bump all around.

 

[Spaghetta]

I don’t think there is a “lot of data” supporting this because I don’t think there’s been a lot of research on the brains of deceased bareknuckle boxers or even their late stage health.

So right now there is only well thought out hypotheses such as “Without gloves people hit less hard to avoid hand damage. Hitting less hard should lead to less brain damage.” Seems like a fair hypothesis, except that there has been research on sparring which is usually done with less power and the research has shown just as much or at times even more damage to the brain.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.he...s/news-story/258aa1bd5e7d7823d3ddb102310f1dba

Because it’s less about how hard a hit is (albeit that is bad too), but simply the frequent, repeated, fast rotation of the head that causes the brain to bump all around.

I can access this article through my university, but it goes over some of the risks involved with gloved fighting.
http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/sportlj13&div=11&id=&page=

And here you can see that boxing gloves transfer more momentum than a bare fist, even on a bag:
https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/viewFile/1470/1328
You couldn't do this sort of hit on a skull, but again even on a bag it's less force. This is a pretty commonly cited study when building a case for this.

You can see here the increase in ring fatalities in the 1880's and 1890's when gloves were required: http://ejmas.com/jcs/velazquez/Death_Under_the_Spotlight_2011_Final.pdf

This is pretty initial information and in no way is my complete assessment of the whole thing, but this simply suggests that it would be safer in terms of brain injury. Less head hits exchanged and with less force. For anyone that says that there should be more data, I completely agree with you. So let fighters who want to do this do it and if it's proven unsafe from there then I'm on board. I'm after fighter safety, I could be wrong about this and I'd be fine with that too.

 

[NHB7]

I can access this article through my university, but it goes over some of the risks involved with gloved fighting.
http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/sportlj13&div=11&id=&page=

And here you can see that boxing gloves transfer more momentum than a bare fist, even on a bag:
https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/viewFile/1470/1328
You couldn't do this sort of hit on a skull, but again even on a bag it's less force. This is a pretty commonly cited study when building a case for this.

You can see here the increase in ring fatalities in the 1880's and 1890's when gloves were required: http://ejmas.com/jcs/velazquez/Death_Under_the_Spotlight_2011_Final.pdf

This is pretty initial information and in no way is my complete assessment of the whole thing, but this simply suggests that it would be safer in terms of brain injury. Less head hits exchanged and with less force. For anyone that says that there should be more data, I completely agree with you. So let fighters who want to do this do it and if it's proven unsafe from there then I'm on board. I'm after fighter safety, I could be wrong about this and I'd be fine with that too.

Cool stuff. Thanks for sharing. I look forward to reviewing it. I coach kids in boxing (and I’m not ready to let’em go bare knuckle yet).

I care a lot about their brain health. I think boxing will have to change pretty significantly at some point to protect boxers and it will, unfortunately for the fans, have to seriously water the sport down. Or not. Or we just go on as usual and accept that there is brain damage. That they are two consenting adults.

But like I said, I train kids. And they are too young to consent to allowing brain damage. And most pro boxers started as kids.

I already train my team different than most gyms. They don’t spar as much. We do point sparring (like karate) where the focus is landing and not power and the action is stopped after a land. I never let a kid take more than 10 shots and they have to take a few weeks off sparring after each session.

As a result, they aren’t going to be as good as kids that train at a traditional gym that do daily sparring or at least twice a week sparring. They can’t compete in the amatuers with these kids (so we do our own tournaments). But I can’t with good conscience watch them batter each other and know they are causing brain damage trying to impress their parents.

 

[Spaghetta]

Cool stuff. Thanks for sharing. I look forward to reviewing it. I coach kids in boxing (and I’m not ready to let’em go bare knuckle yet).

I care a lot about their brain health. I think boxing will have to change pretty significantly at some point to protect boxers and it will, unfortunately for the fans, have to seriously water the sport down. Or not. Or we just go on as usual and accept that there is brain damage. That they are two consenting adults.

But like I said, I train kids. And they are too young to consent to allowing brain damage. And most pro boxers started as kids.

I already train my team different than most gyms. They don’t spar as much. We do point sparring (like karate) where the focus is landing and not power and the action is stopped after a land. I never let a kid take more than 10 shots and they have to take a few weeks off sparring after each session.

As a result, they aren’t going to be as good as kids that train at a traditional gym that do daily sparring or at least twice a week sparring. They can’t compete in the amatuers with these kids (so we do our own tournaments). But I can’t with good conscience watch them batter each other and know they are causing brain damage trying to impress their parents.

Good to see how much you care for your students, that's really spectacular. Safety should be paramount especially when it comes to children. That's a really important part of their life for brain health as well, so it's really excellent they have a coach like you who has his priorities straight. I'll let you know if I find anything more convincing or data that might concern you and your students.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

Dumb idea.....

More broken hands and worse facial cuts still brain trauma regardless it' a contact sport.

Gloves are a part of fighter safety.

cuts will stop fights before more brain trauma can be done. And broken hands stop brain trauma, too.

I dont necessarily like broken handed fighters or fights stopped by cuts, however the logic is real.

the only thing i like about gloves, not mma gloves, is they stop eye pokes.

The thais consider punching the weakest of the eight (nine with heads) strike attacks. Now, they arent usually great boxers, but it stands to reason that a sport that began barefisted would see hands as a way to set up kicks, elbows and knees.

 

[tekkenfan]

Fedor broke his hand in PRIDE. More than once if memory serves me correctly, but that is likely from his technique.

exacly the way he threw his overhand casting punch was very bad on the hand wrist

 

[realisum]

Hey all,

I'm trying to promote a petition I started to have the PA State Athletic Commission allow a gloveless MMA promotion and pave the way for that change. I'm doing this with the goal of fighter safety. Any support or criticism is appreciated, the petition isn't entirely complete and I'm open to wording changes. Thanks

https://www.change.org/p/pa-state-a...to-allow-gloveless-mma-to-reduce-brain-injury

I suggest you stop watching MMA. Sounds like it's to much for you.

 

[Spaghetta]

cuts will stop fights before more brain trauma can be done. And broken hands stop brain trauma, too.

I dont necessarily like broken handed fighters or fights stopped by cuts, however the logic is real.

the only thing i like about gloves, not mma gloves, is they stop eye pokes.

The thais consider punching the weakest of the eight (nine with heads) strike attacks. Now, they arent usually great boxers, but it stands to reason that a sport that began barefisted would see hands as a way to set up kicks, elbows and knees.

The eyes are something I'm a little concerned about, and also body shots being more harmful. I'm not sure about that though, I don't really have anything to go on for the body shots portion

 

[Spaghetta]

I suggest you stop watching MMA. Sounds like it's to much for you.

Yea I'm in here whining about the horrid violence of MMA, you got it bud. Pull your head out your ass

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

The eyes are something I'm a little concerned about, and also body shots being more harmful. I'm not sure about that though, I don't really have anything to go on for the body shots portion

you know, i believe in our design. If it hurts the hands less and the body more without gloves, and breaks hands on the head..... maybe we are meant to work the body more and pick clean shots to the face, rather than head.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

i really like what the Gracies came up with. No rules, fight naturally.... ok, but one caveat - I dont want to ruin my eyesight for life. Everything else can heal. listen, if you dont stick your fingers in my mouth or eyes, i wont bite them or break them, cool? So, no biting, eyegouging, fishooking or small joint manipulation? Cool.

 

[Spaghetta]

i really like what the Gracies came up with. No rules, fight naturally.... ok, but one caveat - I dont want to ruin my eyesight for life. Everything else can heal. listen, if you dont stick your fingers in my mouth or eyes, i wont bite them or break them, cool? So, no biting, eyegouging, fishooking or small joint manipulation? Cool.

Sounds like an ancient Pankration type rule set. I agree with it but ruptured organs would be my only concern, eyes included. I'm not sure if my concern is entirely realistic however.

 

[Reality]

Hey all,

I'm trying to promote a petition I started to have the PA State Athletic Commission allow a gloveless MMA promotion and pave the way for that change. I'm doing this with the goal of fighter safety. Any support or criticism is appreciated, the petition isn't entirely complete and I'm open to wording changes. Thanks

https://www.change.org/p/pa-state-a...to-allow-gloveless-mma-to-reduce-brain-injury

Joe Rogan on gloves:
“It’s much more rare that boxers break their hands compared to MMA fighters. I think MMA fighters have an unrealistic amount of protection on their hands, and it’s just for their own protection really. I got interviewed recently when that guy did overseas, and was asked if I thought MMA fighters should have bigger gloves or head gear. I think the real answer is no gloves and no wrist taping. The thing is when you punch you have to try really hard to keep your wrist straight, and you have to hit with the first two knuckles. Reckless punching would go away."

Like I said earlier, MMA fighters do not know how to punch properly, and without the aid of gloves and wrist taping, they will punch far less. Leg kicks will increase, which will lead to more takedowns, and thus more submissions, because the grappler will be less hindered with the stupid gloves. Punching with just bare hands, in a real situation is not a very effective tool for maximum damage. Which is pretty much why most martial arts before the invention of gloves did not emphasize it. Less punching leads to more grappling, and grappling is safer for the brain, then being smashed by a foreign object on someones' hands.