Muay Thai is the most overrated Martial Arts in the world

[Kanka]

Why do you assume it will be someone like Yodwicha? It never has been in the past. It's always just guys who never really stood out or who were good once but are past their prime now. Probably someone more along the lines of Nontakit Tor Morsi, not him specifically but that kind of guy. Someone who's a decent stadium fighter but doesn't really mix it up with the top guys, for the most part, and fights somewhere between 135 and 147lb. All of a sudden they get little bigger or get the chance to fight international and they look amazing.

Again there was nothing particularly distinctive stylistically about the guys who were doing muay thai and then found success in kickboxing. Was anyone talking about what an amazing kickboxer Superbon would make? Not that I am aware of, and he was a damn good stadium fighter. You would have dismissed his chances too. Now all of a sudden he's doing kickboxing and people can't get enough of him. I don't know what to look for stylistically in a potential kickboxing crossover, other than that they shouldn't be a total nobody. I don't think that it really matters.

The point of my original post was that the fighters who have ended up in kickboxing might as well just have been names pulled out of a hat. It isn't as though there was any real intelligent design into which guys they brought in and which ones not. Why did Buakaw end up in K1 and not some other Thai? Did K1 know something we didn't and know that he was destined for kickboxing greatness? No. The general policy around Thai signings seems to just be grab the nearest, most readily available and well connected Thai. Kaew ended up in K1 because of he was fighting in Japan at the time, Kongnapa was brought in because he was Kaew's stablemate and they needed a short notice replacement, Petchtanong and Superbon are connected to Buakaw so they get a hack at kickboxing too. It has far more to do with luck than anything else. And yet these guys are still incredibly successful in kickboxing, because kickboxing ain't that tough.

The attitude which MMA fan take to wrestling crossovers seems like the appropriate one here. No one doubts that wrestlers make great MMA fighters, even if they don't always pan out. There isn't really any particular style of wrestler that makes the best MMA fighter, but they still know that wrestlers make good MMA fighters. Again, the best wrestlers don't always make the best MMA fighters but they're generally better than the lesser wrestlers. And there is reason to be more excited about some NCAA div 1 All American than there is some random junior college guy who never accomplished anything. They are much more likely to be the better athlete and therefore better fighter.

Might as well just throw shit at the wall, something is pretty much guaranteed to stick.

Mainly because Yodwicha is already used to fighting that kind of fighters already.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Please answer this question. How is it that major kickboxing promotions can routinely bring in Thais who have no prior kickboxing resume to recommend them and yet they are consistently able to strike gold almost right away?

Buakaw was the third Thai that K1 MAX brought in to fight in the 70kg tournament and he goes on to be one of the best kickboxers ever.

Kaew was the first Thai that K1, under new ownership, brought in to compete in their 65kg tournament and he goes on to be the best fighter at 65kg.

Superbon was only the second Thai that Kunlun had brought in (along with Sittichai and Yod) to compete in their 70kg tournament and he goes on to be the best fighter at 70kgs.

Petpanomrung was the third(?) Thai that Glory had brought in to compete at 65kg division and he is now the #1 contender for their title.

Contrast this with the number of fighters from the US, China, Japan, Korea, Scandinavia, Oceania, Eastern Europe etc., who are brought in, in the same weight classes, (presumably) on the strength of their kickboxing resume and yet haven't managed to come up with comparable results to the ones above.

 

[Kanka]

Please answer this question. How is it that major kickboxing promotions can routinely bring in Thais who have no prior kickboxing resume to recommend them and yet they are consistently able to strike gold almost right away?

Buakaw was the third Thai that K1 MAX brought in to fight in the 70kg tournament and he goes on to be one of the best kickboxers ever.

Kaew was the first Thai that K1, under new ownership, brought in to compete in their 65kg tournament and he goes on to be the best fighter at 65kg.

Superbon was only the second Thai that Kunlun had brought in (along with Sittichai and Yod) to compete in their 70kg tournament and he goes on to be the best fighter at 70kgs.

Petpanomrung was the third(?) Thai that Glory had brought in to compete at 65kg division and he is now the #1 contender for their title.

Contrast this with the number of fighters from the US, China, Japan, Korea, Scandinavia, Oceania, Eastern Europe etc., who are brought in, in the same weight classes, (presumably) on the strength of their kickboxing resume and yet haven't managed to come up with comparable results to the ones above.

Because they're better fighters overall and stylistically they have the advantage with their kicks. It only becomes a problem when judges don't score the kicks or deduct points for clinching. Another factor is the size. A jump from 135 lbs to 143 lbs is managable but a jump to 154 lbs will take more time and sacrifice.

I believe Kaew fought at 135 lbs before getting into kickboxing at 143 lbs. Buakaw at 140 lbs before 154 lbs. Superbon and Sittichai had already been fighting at higher weights for a while.

Some will be succesful, some will look like this

or

 

[Cocakillbana]

Kickboxing fans will never stop bringing up Tenshin-Wanchalong. A one fight example of a kickboxer knocking out a dude who is coming up a couple divisions. So much is proved!

 

[Kanka]

Kickboxing fans will never stop bringing up Tenshin-Wanchalong. A one fight example of a kickboxer knocking out a dude who is coming up a couple divisions. So much is proved!

I couldn't care less. If more thais fought at heavier divisions in thailand this discussion wouldn't even exist. Not kickboxings fault thai promoters don't want big people fighting each others

 

[Crimson Glory]

.

What a woman.

I'm sorry, what's the topic of this thread?

 

[DastardlyMass]

if anything tenshin is a mt fighter and not a kickboxer first of all. Second of all losing to a guy that is top 5 in his division is not a failure in kickboxing. Now losing to someone outside of the top 10 is a failure in kickboxing if you want to use thongchai's first fight in kunlun as an example.

 

[Karaev fan]

if anything tenshin is a mt fighter and not a kickboxer first of all..

Tenshin vs Wanchalong is a stupid example for anything, but this is just straight up alternative facts.

 

[Cocakillbana]

I couldn't care less. If more thais fought at heavier divisions in thailand this discussion wouldn't even exist. Not kickboxings fault thai promoters don't want big people fighting each others

Why wouldn't this argument exist? This argument exists at 120 pounds. Look at who is being talked about.

 

[DastardlyMass]

Tenshin vs Wanchalong is a stupid example for anything, but this is just straight up alternative facts.

o god here we go again. if you go ask tenshin if he is a muaythai fighter or a k1 style kickboxer what the hell is he going to say?

I also do not know of any kickboxers who go to thailand to train the clinch yet tenshin goes

 

[Karaev fan]

o god here we go again. if you go ask tension if he is a muaythai fighter or a k1 style kickboxer what the hell is he going to say?

...

He started in Kyokushin karate at the age of 5, made his name in all Japan Shinkarate tournaments until his pro debut, then had his pro debut and his first 15 fights in no elbow/limited clinch RISE/BLADE.

He only had maybe 3-4 elbow permitted amateur fights in his +100 fight amateur record. His first pro fight allowing elbows was vs. Wanchalong. That's why they hyped him up, given that he basically KO'd a reigning muay thai champ in his muay thai debut.

Or is this some sort of the Santa Clause sort of deal? "If you kill muay thai, you become muay thai"

 

[Kanka]

Why wouldn't this argument exist? This argument exists at 120 pounds. Look at who is being talked about.

Because the kickboxing vs muay thai discussion has always been about fights around 70 kg until recently. Me using that example was just to show that thais would have mixed results and stadium champs won't necessarily do much better than the bums Sittichai, Buakaw, Superbon yada yada Pointless discussion i don't want to be repeating myself all the time.

 

[DastardlyMass]

...

He started in Kyokushin karate at the age of 5, made his name in all Japan Shinkarate tournaments until his pro debut, then had his pro debut and his first 15 fights in no elbow/limited clinch RISE/BLADE.

He only had maybe 3-4 elbow permitted amateur fights in his +100 fight amateur record. His first pro fight allowing elbows was vs. Wanchalong. That's why they hyped him up, given that he basically KO'd a reigning muay thai champ in his muay thai debut.

Or is this some sort of the Santa Clause sort of deal? "If you kill muay thai, you become muay thai"

that is comply different from what i have read that he has an extensive amateur record under thai rues

Also really weird seeing him wearing prajiouds and thai shorts since your telling me he spent his whole life a Kyokushin fighter

 

[Cocakillbana]

Because the kickboxing vs muay thai discussion has always been about fights around 70 kg until recently. Me using that example was just to show that thais would have mixed results and stadium champs won't necessarily do much better than the bums Sittichai, Buakaw, Superbon yada yada Pointless discussion i don't want to be repeating myself all the time.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your last two posts.

The argument at 154 is no different than 120-125. Look at the people in kick fighting who go nuts for Tenshin and Takeru compared to Prajantchai and Panpayak. Thais put on fights at 125, so why does this argument exist?

 

[Karaev fan]

that is comply different from what i have read that he has an extensive amateur record under thai rues

Also really weird seeing him wearing prajiouds and thai shorts since your telling me he spent his whole life a Kyokushin fighter

He had 3-4 fights in M-1 Jr. and Muay Lok which are what I referenced above plus at least one fight in Thailand during his junior years.

Hell, refer to the source where you got that picture from if you want

Nasukawa Tenshin started karate at the age of 5. Because karate is open weight, it was harsh for him who was small for his age, but he was defeating the big opponent of the body one after another. And he began kickboxing with the influence of watching K-1 on television at elementary school 6th grade.

Nasukawa has participated in a new kickboxing event called "KNOCK OUT" after the match against Takeru is not achieved. "KNOCK OUT" is a high-level kickboxing event that adopts a rule similar to Muay Thai. In the first game of this event, Nasukawa decided to fight against Muay Thai champion. That opponent is an active champion of Lumpinee Boxing Stadium, the main title of Muay Thai, "Wanchalong PKSenchaigym".

Although the rule of "KNOCK OUT" is close to Muay Thai, attack on elbow is allowed, but he has never experienced that rule. Therefore, he was told that it might be difficult to win this match.

Or maybe you should just ask Tenshin himself



From 10:40

Before the fight w/ Wanchalong
Q. I'm sure your opponent will try a lot of things you have never seen before like clinching. Have you prepared something against that?

A. Yeah... I'll probably knock him out before that

From 17:13

Q. Have you prepared something specific against this [muay thai type opponent you've not faced before]?

A. Yeah... If I play muay thai with him, it won't go well for me. So I'll try some things he hasn't seen before. I mean, this isn't a "muay thai" fight so I don't plan on trying muay thai against him.

Speaking of prajioud and thai shorts, he has also gone on record saying he doesn't own a mongkong and had to borrow Umeno's before the Wanchalong fight since he noticed he didn't have one.

 

[Kanka]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your last two posts.

The argument at 154 is no different than 120-125. Look at the people in kick fighting who go nuts for Tenshin and Takeru compared to Prajantchai and Panpayak. Thais put on fights at 125, so why does this argument exist?

I don't know enough about tge kickboxers below 65 kg to answer your question.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Another factor is the size. A jump from 135 lbs to 143 lbs is managable but a jump to 154 lbs will take more time and sacrifice.

I believe Kaew fought at 135 lbs before getting into kickboxing at 143 lbs. Buakaw at 140 lbs before 154 lbs. Superbon and Sittichai had already been fighting at higher weights for a while.

I don't think size is that big a factor. These guys are used to giving up 5 to 10 pounds or more when they fight abroad. Plus, they also tend to be younger guys who have the ability to grow into new divisions relatively easily. So I don't see why it would take a ton of "sacrifice". Look at the way Jomthong put on weight to go up to 70kg, didn't seem like it effected him all that detrimentally. Not to mention that their skill can carry them a long way.

This kind of stuff isn't that uncommon. I believe that one of Buakaw's last stadium fights took place just a few months before he competed in K1 and he fought a guy who was 140lb with him weighing 138lb. Didn't Sittichai also say before the Salvador fight that he would have the advantage because this was one of the first times that he was fighting someone his own size? Which suggests that he can still fight at 147lb.

I can't think of many Thais who have clearly lost kickboxing bouts because they were the smaller guy, unless you count Kaoklai and Changpuek and guys who fought heavyweights.

 

[Tayski]

lol @DastardlyMass trying to claim Tenshin as a Muay Thai fighter just because he's very talented and KO'd a Lumpini champion. I bet you'd be refuting him as a Muay Thai fighter if he wasn't that good.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Because they're better fighters overall and stylistically they have the advantage with their kicks. It only becomes a problem when judges don't score the kicks or deduct points for clinching. Another factor is the size. A jump from 135 lbs to 143 lbs is managable but a jump to 154 lbs will take more time and sacrifice.

I believe Kaew fought at 135 lbs before getting into kickboxing at 143 lbs. Buakaw at 140 lbs before 154 lbs. Superbon and Sittichai had already been fighting at higher weights for a while.

Some will be succesful, some will look like this

or

Were you suggesting that Thongchai losing had to do with size? Because he was actually the bigger of the two.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Because they're better fighters overall and stylistically they have the advantage with their kicks. It only becomes a problem when judges don't score the kicks or deduct points for clinching. Another factor is the size. A jump from 135 lbs to 143 lbs is managable but a jump to 154 lbs will take more time and sacrifice.

I believe Kaew fought at 135 lbs before getting into kickboxing at 143 lbs. Buakaw at 140 lbs before 154 lbs. Superbon and Sittichai had already been fighting at higher weights for a while.

Some will be succesful, some will look like this

or

Also, the Wanchalong fight was a Muay Thai bout or a "kickboxing" bout of the Japanese variety.