Muay Thai is the most overrated Martial Arts in the world

[Tayski]

Why does it matter though? Nobody said they dominate all weight classes but Sittichai KO'd Groenhart, Buakaw outclassed Holzken twice, Yodsanklai KO'd Artem Levin. Kaoklai KO'd some pretty big guys being undersized. Their skill level is higher.

Because Kickboxing isn't just 70kg and less. Those are great divisions granted, but the heavier divisions matter a lot more in KB than in MT, especially HW back in the K-1 days. It's not my fault if they don't have big men in Thailand.

Also, if we work by wins and losses Buakaw got KO'd by Sato, nearly got KO'd by Dida (!!!), and got banged up by Khayal Dzhaniev, and he lost quite convincingly against Masato in their 2007 rematch (even with the KD that got counted as a slip). Yodsanklai lost to JWP, Artem Levin and Kyshenko, and Sittichai lost to Salvador and RvR once (granted kinda robbed but still). If their skill level was that much higher as you say, then they wouldn't have those losses.

Sorry but Thais are not invincible or that much superior especially when taking into consideration how young they start training and fighting, and the several hundreds of fights they've had already when they transition to KB in their twenties.

You guys give pound 4 pound best kickboxers lists entirely based on Thai fighters from lighter divisions. That's just bias.

Rico Verhoeven has achieved more in KB than Yodsanklai, Superbon, Kaoklai and arguably Kaew. And I'm not even mentioning past HW's like Hoost, Aerts, Schilt etc.

 

[Kanka]

Because Kickboxing isn't just 70kg and less. Those are great divisions granted, but the heavier divisions matter a lot more in KB than in MT, especially HW back in the K-1 days. It's not my fault if they don't have big men in Thailand.

Also, if we work by wins and losses Buakaw got KO'd by Sato, nearly got KO'd by Dida (!!!), and got banged up by Khayal Dzhaniev, and he lost quite convincingly against Masato in their 2007 rematch (even with the KD that got counted as a slip). Yodsanklai lost to JWP, Artem Levin and Kyshenko, and Sittichai lost to Salvador and RvR once (granted kinda robbed but still). If their skill level was that much higher as you say, then they wouldn't have those losses. Sorry but Thais are not invincible or that much superior.

You guys give pound 4 pound best kickboxers lists entirely based on Thai fighters from lighter divisions. That's just bias.

Yeah but overall they still had better careers than the guys they lost to which is what counts. Saenchai also lost to fighters, doesn't make them better than him.

What's wrong with the list i gave you apart from Petchtanong? It's true they're the #1 in these promotions.

And i don't think JayMuayThai:s point was to say thais are invincible, but rather to show that the kickboxing divisions in which thais do compete are dominated by thais (in case some new guy in the forum didn't understand that it was a troll thread). I don't agree with Yodsanklai being P4P either but i can clearly see his point.

Chances that Superbon and Sittichai would beat Holzken, Doumbe, Groenhart and Simon Marcus are pretty high despite the weight difference.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Glory 70 kg #1: Sittichai
Kunlun 70 kg #1: Superbon
Kunlun 65 kg #1: Petchtanong
K-1 65 kg #1: Kaew
K-1 Max #1 from 2004-2009: Buakaw
Glory 65 kg top contender to face the (virtual) Champ: Petpanomrung

Not subjective

Got to give those kickboxing matchmakers and talent scouts a lot of credit though. Sittichai says that almost no Thais could succeed in kickboxing and yet somehow the kickboxing matchmakers and talent scouts managed to find exactly those Thais that were capable of dominating their divisions, instead of the thousands who were incapable. Like finding a diamond in a shitstack, it boggles the mind.

 

[Kanka]

Got to give those kickboxing matchmakers and talent scouts a lot of credit though. Sittichai says that almost no Thais could succeed in kickboxing and yet somehow the kickboxing matchmakers and talent scouts managed to find exactly those Thais that were capable of dominating their divisions, instead of the thousands who were incapable. Like finding a diamond in a shitstack, it boggles the mind.

If i recall correctly he said that currenly only a few would, not that almost no one could. You're free to name the fighters at that weight class that could go into kickboxing today and clear up the 70 kg division like Sittichai. You think Denpanom, Pongsiri, Sensatarn, Diesellek, Sirimongkol Komphetlek, PTT etc would?

Sure there are more fighters at lighter weights that would be much better than Sittichai if they put on some more weight and dedicated themselves to kickboxing.

 

[Will Samuelson]

lol. This thread.

Troll says "over-rated" and you start squabbling without even knowing what his troll context was.

Anyway.

If it was a fight to the death, and nobody had any grappling credentials, I'd always favour the Nak Muay.

Downward elbows to the skill. Kicks with the shin. Knees to the body and head and kicks with higher blunt force trauma. A clinch that is unheard of in other "stand up" arts. Always, Muay Thai. Other than headbuts and gloves, it is still very close, in essence, training to kill.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Chances that Superbon and Sittichai would beat Holzken, Doumbe, Groenhart and Simon Marcus are pretty high despite the weight difference.

Speaking of which LOL

 

[Tayski]

lol. This thread.

Troll says "over-rated" and you start squabbling without even knowing what his troll context was.

Anyway.

If it was a fight to the death, and nobody had any grappling credentials, I'd always favour the Nak Muay.

Downward elbows to the skill. Kicks with the shin. Knees to the body and head and kicks with higher blunt force trauma. A clinch that is unheard of in other "stand up" arts. Always, Muay Thai. Other than headbuts and gloves, it is still very close, in essence, training to kill.

I wouldn't count out bare knucle boxers, lethwei fighters and kyokushin karate fighters though. simply because of the bare knuckle aspect.

 

[Tayski]

Yeah but overall they still had better careers than the guys they lost to which is what counts.

And yet you gave the example of Yodsanklai KO'ing Artem Levin. Artem has had a better KB career than yod.

What's wrong with the list i gave you apart from Petchtanong? It's true they're the #1 in these promotions.

Nothing wrong with your list apart from Petch indeed, and apart from the fact that you handpicked specific divisions and time periods. Otherwise yes I find it quite accurate.

And i don't think JayMuayThai:s point was to say thais are invincible, but rather to show that the kickboxing divisions in which thais do compete are dominated by thais

The Thais have a big presence in those divisions but talking about domination is a bit far fetched. Having Sittichai and Superbon currently sitting at the top of the 70kg division is very recent and nothing tells us they'll dominate that division for the next few years.

Chances that Superbon and Sittichai would beat Holzken, Doumbe, Groenhart and Simon Marcus are pretty high despite the weight difference.

I wouldn't put my money on that if those fights are taking place at 77kg.

 

[Kanka]

And yet you gave the example of Yodsanklai KO'ing Artem Levin. Artem has had a better KB career than yod.



Nothing wrong with your list apart from Petch indeed, and apart from the fact that you handpicked specific divisions and time periods. Otherwise yes I find it quite accurate.



The Thais have a big presence in those divisions but talking about domination is a bit far fetched. Having Sittichai and Superbon currently sitting at the top of the 70kg division is very recent and nothing tells us they'll dominate that division for the next few years.



I wouldn't put my money on that if those fights are taking place at 77kg.

The only time period i picked was Buakaw, but after Buakaw it was Petrosyan and now Sittichai and Superbon. I picked 70 kg primarily because it has remain the most stacked division over time despite some fluctuations. I only named the 77 kg fighters losing to thais because you said we ignored anything above 70 kg. It's not like Holzken, Groenhart and Artem Levin did huge improvements in skill when moving up in weight and they were never able to dominate in 70 kg.

 

[Tayski]

The only time period i picked was Buakaw, but after Buakaw it was Petrosyan and now Sittichai and Superbon. I picked 70 kg primarily because it has remain the most stacked division over time despite some fluctuations. I only named the 77 kg fighters losing to thais because you said we ignored anything above 70 kg. It's not like Holzken, Groenhart and Artem Levin did huge improvements in skill when moving up in weight and they were never able to dominate in 70 kg.

Sittichai and Superbon have not yet reached the same level of dominance as Buakaw or Petrosyan. Otherwise you could say "but after Buakaw it was Petrosyan and then RvR and now Sittichai and Superbon".

I do think Holzken and Levin have improved a lot more in skill when moving up in weight, and I can see them avenging their losses against Buakaw and Yodsanklai respectively at 77kg.

 

[Kanka]

Sittichai and Superbon have not yet reached the same level of dominance as Buakaw or Petrosyan. Otherwise you could say "but after Buakaw it was Petrosyan and then RvR and now Sittichai and Superbon".

I do think Holzken and Levin have improved a lot more in skill when moving up in weight, and I can see them avenging their losses against Buakaw and Yodsanklai respectively at 77kg.

More like Buakaw, then Petrosyan, then Ristie/RvR , now Superbon/Sittichai. Doesn't matter, though my point remains the same.

 

[Tayski]

We're more or less agreeing on the same things to be honest... it's a shame that people always have to go for the X style > W style

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

If i recall correctly he said that currenly only a few would, not that almost no one could. You're free to name the fighters at that weight class that could go into kickboxing today and clear up the 70 kg division like Sittichai. You think Denpanom, Pongsiri, Sensatarn, Diesellek, Sirimongkol Komphetlek, PTT etc would?

Sure there are more fighters at lighter weights that would be much better than Sittichai if they put on some more weight and dedicated themselves to kickboxing.

Sittichai is the top 70kg fighter and he ain't even a real 70kg fighter. Buakaw was too and he wasn't a real 70kg fighter either.

And who the fuck knew who Kongnapa was before he did kickboxing? You can't just give a cursory scan of a division and say that no one at those weights will succeed in kickboxing. Many of the most successful kickboxing crossovers were relatively unknown to all but the most hardcore muay thai fans ,until they crossed over.

 

[Kanka]

Sittichai is the top 70kg fighter and he ain't even a real 70kg fighter. Buakaw was too and he wasn't a real 70kg fighter either.

Come on just name the fighters. I don't doubt that Littewada, Yodwicha and maybe Manasak and Yodpanomrung would do well in 65 kg but i'm not as convinced as you are that they all would do much better than those out of prime thais that were nothing special in thailand, especially at 70 kg. Probably mixed succes it's hard to predict.

Fighters like Saeksan, Panpayak Sitjajik, Sangmanee, Superlek, Pet U Thong Kaimukkhao, Yodlekpet, Rambo, Rodlek, would probably do well too but would need to put on more weight in order to succeed. Sangmanee had trouble against a random punch heavy guy who was just slightly bigger in Top King.

I don't see the current 70 kg thais doing very well though, and not Petmorrakot, Muangthai, Chujaroen, Chamuektong + a couple more accomplished fighters either.

Sittichai has been fighting at 67 since 2011 and 70 since 2013 .

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Come on just name the fighters. I don't doubt that Littewada, Yodwicha and maybe Manasak and Yodpanomrung would do well in 65 kg but i'm not as convinced as you are that they all would do much better than those out of prime thais that were nothing special in thailand, especially at 70 kg. Probably mixed succes it's hard to predict.

Fighters like Saeksan, Panpayak Sitjajik, Sangmanee, Superlek, Pet U Thong Kaimukkhao, Yodlekpet, Rambo, Rodlek, would probably do well too but would need to put on more weight in order to succeed. Sangmanee had trouble against a random punch heavy guy who was just slightly bigger in Top King.

I don't see the current 70 kg thais doing very well though, and not Petmorrakot, Muangthai, Chujaroen, Chamuektong + a couple more accomplished fighters either.

Sittichai has been fighting at 67 since 2011 and 70 since 2013 .

Why do you assume it will be someone like Yodwicha? It never has been in the past. It's always just guys who never really stood out or who were good once but are past their prime now. Probably someone more along the lines of Nontakit Tor Morsi, not him specifically but that kind of guy. Someone who's a decent stadium fighter but doesn't really mix it up with the top guys, for the most part, and fights somewhere between 135 and 147lb. All of a sudden they get little bigger or get the chance to fight international and they look amazing.

Again there was nothing particularly distinctive stylistically about the guys who were doing muay thai and then found success in kickboxing. Was anyone talking about what an amazing kickboxer Superbon would make? Not that I am aware of, and he was a damn good stadium fighter. You would have dismissed his chances too. Now all of a sudden he's doing kickboxing and people can't get enough of him. I don't know what to look for stylistically in a potential kickboxing crossover, other than that they shouldn't be a total nobody. I don't think that it really matters.

The point of my original post was that the fighters who have ended up in kickboxing might as well just have been names pulled out of a hat. It isn't as though there was any real intelligent design into which guys they brought in and which ones not. Why did Buakaw end up in K1 and not some other Thai? Did K1 know something we didn't and know that he was destined for kickboxing greatness? No. The general policy around Thai signings seems to just be grab the nearest, most readily available and well connected Thai. Kaew ended up in K1 because of he was fighting in Japan at the time, Kongnapa was brought in because he was Kaew's stablemate and they needed a short notice replacement, Petchtanong and Superbon are connected to Buakaw so they get a hack at kickboxing too. It has far more to do with luck than anything else. And yet these guys are still incredibly successful in kickboxing, because kickboxing ain't that tough.

The attitude which MMA fan take to wrestling crossovers seems like the appropriate one here. No one doubts that wrestlers make great MMA fighters, even if they don't always pan out. There isn't really any particular style of wrestler that makes the best MMA fighter, but they still know that wrestlers make good MMA fighters. Again, the best wrestlers don't always make the best MMA fighters but they're generally better than the lesser wrestlers. And there is reason to be more excited about some NCAA div 1 All American than there is some random junior college guy who never accomplished anything. They are much more likely to be the better athlete and therefore better fighter.

Might as well just throw shit at the wall, something is pretty much guaranteed to stick.

 

[Cocakillbana]

Kanka, what do you see here that you don't see in the fighters you mentioned? Why could these two make it, but not those in your post?

 

[Cocakillbana]

In Kunlun rules I'd take Petmorakot over just about any 65 kilogram kickboxer. Dude can live off a jab, has an ok kick, and could walk motnerfuckers down. Hell, I think he'd do well in kickboxing anywhere.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

In Kunlun rules I'd take Petmorakot over just about any 65 kilogram kickboxer. Dude can live off a jab, has an ok kick, and could walk motnerfuckers down. Hell, I think he'd do well in kickboxing anywhere.

If his performance against Aziz Hlali is indicative of anything, I think he'll do fine. He basically ripped off Hlali's balls with his bare hands and then force fed him them.

 

[Kanka]

Kanka, what do you see here that you don't see in the fighters you mentioned? Why could these two make it, but not those in your post?

I said i'm not confident that all of them would do better than current thai kickboxers, despite being better nak muays. Some might do extremely well even much better than the current ones, others might to ok. Hard to know beforehand but sometimes i get the impression that Jtr thinks any decent thai could just run over kickboxers, because well, Sittichai, Buakaw and Superbon did and they weren't any outstanding nak muays.

 

[Kanka]

In Kunlun rules I'd take Petmorakot over just about any 65 kilogram kickboxer. Dude can live off a jab, has an ok kick, and could walk motnerfuckers down. Hell, I think he'd do well in kickboxing anywhere.

You might be right, who knows.