Most all around skilled fighter EVER?

Fedor by a mile. nobody had such explosive takedowns and nobody was as dangerous in the clinch as Fedor, not to mention nobody was as dangerous off their backs as Fedor and nobody had his unbridled power at any weight.
 
jodka said:
I've got to go with BJ Penn in his prime, at 155.

You could easily argue he had the best boxing, takedown defense, and BJJ in the game, all at the same time. He also has very under-rated takedowns. His only weakness was kicks, he never was a kicker. But he didn't need to be.
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Not a fan of him but I agree. If he had just commited himself to training hard earlier in his career, He had the potential to be the best ever and he really could have given GSP a huge challenge.
 
Cooliox said:
I'm sorry, in his 'prime'? at '155'?

You mean when he went to 155 after losing to GSP and getting punched in the face 50 times by Matt Hughes? You consider this guy to be the best all around guy of all time?

Yea he collected some wins at 155 then when he came back to 170 (in his prime), GSP beat the living shit out of him. GSP beat him so bad, Mama Penn was taking it to court.

Then he picked up a couple more wins at 155 before Edgar schooled him. Yea, the first fight was close but in the 2nd fight, Edgar dominated BJ Penn both on the feet, and in grappling. And Frankie's a small guy.

BJ then went on to get beat by almost everyone after that... including getting severely out grappled by Jon Fitch, outboxed by Nick Diaz, and destroyed by Rory.

Don't get me wrong, I think BJ Penn is one of the better fighters during his 'prime', though I'm not sure what that means as he's only 34 now... but no way is he even top10 all time.



I think speaking in terms of all-around fighter, it has to be GSP. Background in striking, best MMA wrestler ever, black belt in bjj, phenomenal conditioning, good game plans, and basically the most impressive reigning career (now that Anderson lost his title).

Fedor was insanely good all around as well but probably not as polished in his striking as GSP. Fedor had insane boxing, but he wasn't a kicker. GSP's striking is just near perfect.
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BJ Penn is a natural LW. Let that sink in. He was more concerned with challenging himself as opposed to protecting his legacy by staying in one weight class after he'd cleaned it out.

As for losing to Hughes (who he also beat twice, Forrest) and GSP (who you think is the best all around fighter in the world - and who oh by the way is MUCH bigger than Penn) - there's NO shame in that. I'm sure if GSP had nutted up - and then got KO'd by Anderson Silva back in the day - you would have forgiven GSP for losing.

Penn has never been finished at 155. He has three losses - all by decision, and two of those were ... close (the first loss to Edgar was utter bullshit for what its worth). And he's never been finished by Matt Serra. You see how I can use some obscure fact that has nothing to do with this argument, so I'm sinking to your level.

Penn has the better overall skillset. GSP has the better resume (if Penn had stayed at 155 for his entire career, he'd have a resume which would rival GSP's)
 
bjpenngoat said:
Fedor by a mile. nobody had such explosive takedowns and nobody was as dangerous in the clinch as Fedor, not to mention nobody was as dangerous off their backs as Fedor and nobody had his unbridled power at any weight.
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B.J Penn did
 
gsp- kicks boxing, takedown, jiu jitsu, meshing takedowns and strikes

As- TDD, boxing, kicks, insane clinch, strong enough to stuff a takedown and flexible enough to kick you in the head, has finished a hardened wrestling with a sub

Fedor- subs from top, subs from guard, throws, tdd and would punish afterwords, heavy hands, kicked cro cop in the head, sat in Nog's guard unscathed
 
this one comes down to

bones vs gsp

while gsp is more skilled overall, bones the one whos beating fighters at their own game.

honourable mention chis weidman
 
I would pick GSP but he doesn't have very dangerous subs, he of course has a very strong ground game but i think lacking the ability to submit opponents gets in the way of being all rounder. Any fighter who is to be considered the most all rounded has to be able to dominate standing up, take the fighter where he wants, and submit them in multiple ways.

Fedor comes closest to that, Jones does as well, BJ Penn at his prime was almost perfectly rounded
 
bjpenngoat said:
Fedor by a mile. nobody had such explosive takedowns and nobody was as dangerous in the clinch as Fedor, not to mention nobody was as dangerous off their backs as Fedor and nobody had his unbridled power at any weight.
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yeah cause subing onedimentional wrestlers, beating up on onedimenstional strikers heath hering is the indication of how good someone is
 
_Keyser_Soze_ said:
BJ Penn is a natural LW. Let that sink in. He was more concerned with challenging himself as opposed to protecting his legacy by staying in one weight class after he'd cleaned it out.

As for losing to Hughes (who he also beat twice, Forrest) and GSP (who you think is the best all around fighter in the world - and who oh by the way is MUCH bigger than Penn) - there's NO shame in that. I'm sure if GSP had nutted up - and then got KO'd by Anderson Silva back in the day - you would have forgiven GSP for losing.

Penn has never been finished at 155. He has three losses - all by decision, and two of those were ... close (the first loss to Edgar was utter bullshit for what its worth). And he's never been finished by Matt Serra. You see how I can use some obscure fact that has nothing to do with this argument, so I'm sinking to your level.

Penn has the better overall skillset. GSP has the better resume (if Penn had stayed at 155 for his entire career, he'd have a resume which would rival GSP's)
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I'm sorry, what does "natural 155" mean? Does it mean that he was walking around at 155 all his life and wore a fat suit to fight at 170?

Is that why his cardio was notoriously bad- because he didn't have to cut weight?

That's BS. This guy used to fight at MW. He made his name at WW, and got brutally beat, so they sent him to 155 where there no practically no stars at that time, and rebranded him as "natural lw"

No, Frankie is a natural lightweight. BJ is not. In fact Frankie has a much better all around game than BJ. Frankie was outwrestling these HUGE 155pound wrestlers, and boxing everyone from any style.

But as he was chased to 155 because he had back-to-back losses at 170, he was chased back to 170 because well, he had back-to-back losses at 155. But he got thoroughly dominated there too.

That's why BJ Penn is returning at 145. There's just no other division that he can enter. He's bean beat the F out of 155 and 170. Dana probably told him he could fight but only at 145.

Props to BJ for pioneering the 155 division. Basically it was a dead division before BJ showed up. It's now the most stacked division. Good on BJ.

But seriously, he's no where near being one of the best of all time. He got murdered boxing with Nick Diaz. He got wrestled to death by GSP. He got grappled into tears by Jon Fitch.

And Rory basically sent him packing. You can't call a guy like this the best ever skill-set in MMA.
Seriously.

All this 'he fought big guys to test himself...' nah, that's bs. Like I said, he kept cutting down weight classes, and now he's going lower than anyone ever imagined.

He's not a Roy Jones type of guy who started light and kept moving up, all the way the up to prove himself.

Aye, anyways I'll believe that BJ can make 145 when I see it. A natural lightweight should make 145 pretty easily... like how Frankie did.
 
Sirwastealot said:
I would pick GSP but he doesn't have very dangerous subs, he of course has a very strong ground game but i think lacking the ability to submit opponents gets in the way of being all rounder. Any fighter who is to be considered the most all rounded has to be able to dominate standing up, take the fighter where he wants, and submit them in multiple ways.

Fedor comes closest to that, Jones does as well, BJ Penn at his prime was almost perfectly rounded
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bj penn had 0 wrestling n whens the last time fedor subd bjj bb?

exactly
 
in before everyone establishes their own criteria then argue with people who have a different criteria or definition of skilled fighter

.......oops too late

this sherdog argument is almost as predictable as the fighter pay argument that happens after every single event when they publish the NSAC payouts
 
Cooliox said:
I'm sorry, what does "natural 155" mean? Does it mean that he was walking around at 155 all his life and wore a fat suit to fight at 170?

Is that why his cardio was notoriously bad- because he didn't have to cut weight?

That's BS. This guy used to fight at MW. He made his name at WW, and got brutally beat, so they sent him to 155 where there no practically no stars at that time, and rebranded him as "natural lw"

No, Frankie is a natural lightweight. BJ is not. In fact Frankie has a much better all around game than BJ. Frankie was outwrestling these HUGE 155pound wrestlers, and boxing everyone from any style.

But as he was chased to 155 because he had back-to-back losses at 170, he was chased back to 170 because well, he had back-to-back losses at 155. But he got thoroughly dominated there too.

That's why BJ Penn is returning at 145. There's just no other division that he can enter. He's bean beat the F out of 155 and 170. Dana probably told him he could fight but only at 145.

Props to BJ for pioneering the 155 division. Basically it was a dead division before BJ showed up. It's now the most stacked division. Good on BJ.

But seriously, he's no where near being one of the best of all time. He got murdered boxing with Nick Diaz. He got wrestled to death by GSP. He got grappled into tears by Jon Fitch.

And Rory basically sent him packing. You can't call a guy like this the best ever skill-set in MMA.
Seriously.

All this 'he fought big guys to test himself...' nah, that's bs. Like I said, he kept cutting down weight classes, and now he's going lower than anyone ever imagined.

He's not a Roy Jones type of guy who started light and kept moving up, all the way the up to prove himself.

Aye, anyways I'll believe that BJ can make 145 when I see it. A natural lightweight should make 145 pretty easily... like how Frankie did.
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gotta agree

fedor nuthuggers are bad, but bjs seems to take the crown.

it was obvious from frankie fights bj is not quick/fast nuff to be "natural lw" n was clearly not strong nuff to be "ww"

he was great in some areas (boxing, bjj, chin, tdd)

but at the same time he was horrible (kicking, wrestling, cardio, strength)

thats not "most skilled ever"

you look at guys like gsp n bones n you really need to nitpick to find a weakness.
 
Cooliox said:
But seriously, he's no where near being one of the best of all time. He got murdered boxing with Nick Diaz. He got wrestled to death by GSP. He got grappled into tears by Jon Fitch.
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im not going to argue with you about who the best of all time is but your points here are retarded. he beat diaz in the first round in both boxing and grappling. he gassed. if you dont get this you have the fight IQ of a just bleed fans abortion

gsp couldnt take bj down in the first fight until bj gassed. gsp didnt take bj down in the second fight until he gassed. gsp's gameplan was to take BJ down in the second fight yet he waited until the second round to score a TD? right. i guess GSP was just pretending to try and take bj down while he was on one leg but in reality he was toying with him for 5 minutes while want absolutely no part of the striking

he out grappled fitch for two rounds. he gassed. fitch didnt magically forget how to grapple for two rounds then remember. once againn bj gassed

if you want to shit on bj's gas tank be my guest. but if you want to talk about his skills in a thread about skills, stop making such stupid comments
 
grimballer said:
bj penn had 0 wrestling n whens the last time fedor subd bjj bb?

exactly
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Did you answer your own question in your head and then reply exactly? Give yourself a high five for me.

Also, i'm very impressed with your knowledge of MMA. BJ Penn has zero wrestling.
 
grimballer said:
gotta agree

fedor nuthuggers are bad, but bjs seems to take the crown.

it was obvious from frankie fights bj is not quick/fast nuff to be "natural lw" n was clearly not strong nuff to be "ww"

he was great in some areas (boxing, bjj, chin, tdd)

but at the same time he was horrible (kicking, wrestling, cardio, strength)

thats not "most skilled ever"

you look at guys like gsp n bones n you really need to nitpick to find a weakness.
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the guy took down fitch and controlled him for two rounds (before gassing). fitch is a guy whos a high level mma wrestler and a guy whos naturally about 15lbs+ bigger

also people are mixing up athleticism with skill. you can have all the tricks in the book but if they other guy is faster and stronger its going to be really tough to beat him if he knows what hes doing

GSP is an all time great. hes also probably has the best athleticism in the game
 
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