Mosley: Prime DLH beats prime Mayweather

[mrsenor]

prime dlh didnt have roach as a trainer

 

[mozfonky]

maybe he could have but I could see sugar saying that because he lost to may and beat Delahoya. Oscar almost won when he was pretty shot so he woulda had a great chance as a young fighter. He was an excellent boxer, best left hand in the business during his prime and motivated, he put on a ton of sensational performances, then, after trinidad, he just never seemed as hungry and lost almost all his biggest fights even though they were close. I thought the hopkins fight was insane, but gotta give it to him, he fought anyone and everyone, not too many people can say that. If only he actually tried to win those fights.

 

[listrahtes]

If only he actually tried to win those fights.

You cant be serious about that. He was just way out of his prime and fought at least one weightclass too high in some fights. He would have been outclassed against Floyd if he would not have given it all.
Hopkins was a mismatch from the beginning. He did let the win against Trinidad slip away but thats it.

 

[Prefect]

The basic premise of the thread is how Oscar would have done better if he were in his "prime". 34 yr old Oscar was simply not as good as 24-28 year old Oscar. You are blowing arguments off as if it is this was ludicrous, but to say that circumstances between fighter A and B can't ever be different is illogical. Age, injuries and momentum can affect matchups.

How the fuck do this sub forum always have Floyd nuthuggers modding it? What a joke.

Oscar failed against all A level competition. I don't know how anyone could think he could beat Floyd.

 

[SSgt Dickweed]

Oscar failed against all A level competition. I don't know how anyone could think he could beat Floyd.

Like it has been said in the thread Old DLH only got beat by Floyd by a few rounds, and PRIME DLH would have likely done better. And DLH should've against Tito and SSM in their second fight.

 

[nastyleft]

Oscar was a great talent at his best but I'm not sure he was mentally strong enough to beat Floyd.

Good point. People always want to compare guys as if these legacy fights would be two guys in their prime as robots, like two video game characters on A.I.. They forget the fact that there's a lot of mental and preparation and lifestyle involved. That's why I don't think Duran would fare wll against a guy like Mayweather Jr. Sure Oscar's talent and physical attributes make it a pick em fight but like you said Im not so sure he was mentally able to handle what Floyd does to guys. Everyone just takes a guy's best and says thats how he fights. Floyd is one of those guys that you can't quite put a finger on how he'd get beat against anyone because he can do so much. they like to say, well Hearns was longer taller and KO'd everybody, but....that's ALL he was. What happens when a guy like Floyd takes those attrubutes away from him?

The only way Oscar was able to handle the build-up when they actually fought, was because he was a mature older guy, married and settled down. Back when he was single, bangin Latin novela actresses and models, singing pop songs and doin blow on the low, he probably would've been disheveled by the time he got to the ring and then possibly unnerved and undecided down the stretch after Floyd adjusted for the 3rd - 4th time in the fight. All the angles, all the shit Floyd throws and changes up on guys. I think that's part of what happened to him when they actually fought, abandoned the jab trying to catch Floyd. And when he gave up the fight against Trinidad was the most blatant example of phoning it in. I think Tito's pressure and still being there late pushed Oscar to coast, instead of fighting to the end. It'd be a good good fight, but it's not so easy for Oscar.

 

[nastyleft]

Like it has been said in the thread Old DLH only got beat by Floyd by a few rounds, and PRIME DLH would have likely done better. And DLH should've against Tito and SSM in their second fight.

Those fights are HUGE reasons that make Oscar an under-dog against Floyd, regardless if their real fight was close.

 

[SSgt Dickweed]

I don't think mental issues had DLH coasting the end rounds during his fight with Trinidad. He thought he was ahead by a lot in the scorecards and since he was Vegas' darling at that time, it was just good strategy to get a W off a decision. Considering the long history of Vegas judges gifting decisions to the cash cows, it's kind of perplexing that DLH lost that fight.

https://www.eyeonthering.com/boxing/fight-millennium-oscar-de-la-hoya-vs-felix-trinidad

 

[wilddeuces]

Good point. People always want to compare guys as if these legacy fights would be two guys in their prime as robots, like two video game characters on A.I.. They forget the fact that there's a lot of mental and preparation and lifestyle involved. That's why I don't think Duran would fare wll against a guy like Mayweather Jr. Sure Oscar's talent and physical attributes make it a pick em fight but like you said Im so sure he was mentally able to handle what Floyd does to guys. Everyone just takes a guy's best and says thats how he fights. Floyd is one of those guys that you can't quite put a finger on how he'd get beat against anyone because he can do so much. they like to say, well Hearns was longer taller and KO'd everybody, but....that's ALL he was. What happens when a guy like Floyd takes those attrubutes away from him?

The only way Oscar was able to handle the build-up when they actually fought, was because he was a mature older guy, married and settled down. Back when he was single, bangin Latin novela actresses and models, singing pop songs and doin blow on the low, he probably would've been disheveled by the time he got to the ring and then possibly unnerved and undecided down the stretch after Floyd adjusted for the 3rd - 4th time in the fight. All the angles, all the shit Floyd throws and changes up on guys. I think that's part of what happened to him when they actually fought, abandoned the jab trying to catch Floyd. And when he gave up the fight against Trinidad was the most blatant example of phoning it in. I think Tito's pressure and still being there late pushed Oscar to coast, instead of fighting to the end. It'd be a good good fight, but it's not so easy for Oscar.

But he took Floyd to the brink when he was way past his best. He fought, at best, once a year, by the time he turned 29-30, and he was easily past his physical peak. If he did that when he was a shot older version of himself, it stands to reason he would have done much better if he were in his physical prime. That's how age works. He fought very close fights that he arguably won twice when he was younger (and allegedly behaving in a way that would have impacted his performance). So, why can't that version do as well. The version that made a strong case to beat Trinidad (your "phoning it in" statement was a bit misinformed, but it suits your narrative) and Mosley?

Floyd can adjust, no dispute, and you can actually put a finger out what he does, if you watch the tape. Floyd's an all time special talent, but people playing that Floyd fought guys at their peak all the time are kidding themselves.

We accept that technical boxers fade last. We must also appreciate that some guys get shot much sooner.

We look at the names of the guys he fought and he beat some great fighters. But they weren't at their greatest when he fought them: Cotto, Pacquiao, Oscar, Mosley. These were some of - or the - very best names on his resume. Were these guys in their prime? No.

I actually think Floyd's early career commands more respect than his later career. No jokes. He took fights against incredible names that stopped being as incredible, or he fought guys that were timely fighters, but not timeless fighters.

I know, I know, people will try and unzip and take a dump all over this, but it's true. Keep your pants up. A lot of fighters do this, so if Floyd does it, that doesn't make him better, that kind of makes him like a lot of the existing guys.

If Floyd fought all these guys in their absolute peak (like Oscar did when he picked up ALL of his losses), then Floyd would have some losses too. That's just the way it works. Nobody walks over peaking A fighters 100% of the time. NOBODY.

Name a fighter that did?

Peak Oscar makes the fight even closer, and maybe wins. Maybe loses, but I like his chances of winning.

 

[Truth77]

dont know but would have loved to see it

 

[mozfonky]

mayweather having a close fight with late career oscar counts against him in my mind. this was the same oscar who got batted around the ring by manny a few mos. later. Oscar was a fine fighter when he was young, was honestly best when he was a lightweight and was hungry. He wanted the fame, the money, at welter he just wasn't interested.

 

[DanMMAleague]

Are you forgetting the weight difference in that fight? I think De La Hoya came in good for that fight. Maybe not prime but not as far from it as people make out. Also Floyd has that defensive style where sometimes he does just enough to win without going overboard so just because the fight was close doesn't mean he wouldn't beat him again under different circumstances. Its like when people say Pac would of beaten Floyd if he didn't have shoulder issues. No if Pac didn't have an injury he would of done more which would of MADE Floyd do more. Floyd doesn't do what he doesn't need to do. He starts adjusting when he starts losing.

I think Oscar was far from prime.

He had been fighting once a year and training about 10 weeks out of 52.

He had no financial incentive to fight regularly the way prime Oscar did.

A year later he got annihilated by Pacquiao.

There’s no way in hell the Oscar who fought Trinidad 10 years earlier gets annihilated by anyone let alone a short little guy like Pacquiao.

 

[The Adder]

agreed

 

[Julius_Caesar]

I think Oscar was far from prime.

He had been fighting once a year and training about 10 weeks out of 52.

He had no financial incentive to fight regularly the way prime Oscar did.

A year later he got annihilated by Pacquiao.

There’s no way in hell the Oscar who fought Trinidad 10 years earlier gets annihilated by anyone let alone a short little guy like Pacquiao.

When he fought Pacquiao he was brought down to 145lbs after he had been fighting at 160/154 for years. He was practically a zombie. Against Floyd tho he was calling all the shots. He made Floyd come up to 154 for the first time and came in a lot heavier. We've seen the difference weight can make especially at that level. Yes Oscar wasn't in his prime but it was still impressive to beat him. Floyd came in to that fight standing at 149lbs lol. Most guys who walk around that weight cut down to 130/135. So to put that in perspective that's almost like Lomachenko jumping up to 147 to face Pac. Then again I don't think Pac is a lot bigger naturally than Loma compared to how much bigger Oscar was to Floyd.

 

[wilddeuces]

When he fought Pacquiao he was brought down to 145lbs after he had been fighting at 160/154 for years. He was practically a zombie. Against Floyd tho he was calling all the shots. He made Floyd come up to 154 for the first time and came in a lot heavier. We've seen the difference weight can make especially at that level. Yes Oscar wasn't in his prime but it was still impressive to beat him. Floyd came in to that fight standing at 149lbs lol. Most guys who walk around that weight cut down to 130/135. So to put that in perspective that's almost like Lomachenko jumping up to 147 to face Pac. Then again I don't think Pac is a lot bigger naturally than Loma compared to how much bigger Oscar was to Floyd.

Yeah, we know how Oscar got demolished by Pac. He was a sitting duck and couldn't pull the trigger.

To round out our present perspective though, we have to look at what was going on at the time. Remember that Bhop toyed with Trinidad and then KO'd him in the 12th, yet he was a 3:1 underdog going into that fight and he was the natural MW, not the WW moving up. So, let's go back to Oscar vs Pac. Oscar was actually the favourite going into that fight, and that old, faded version of himself that fought a razor close split loss to Mayweather was still in people's minds. Pacquiao had lost to Morales and was KO'd earlier in his career. At the time, people could logically think that Oscar (who started well below 145) could hurt the much smaller Pacquiao who started his career at light flyweight (if I recall correctly).

People thought Canelo would be too big against Floyd, and he was. He was so big that the extra two pounds taken to 152 in the catchweight drained him a little bit more.

A sides screw B sides. It's the oldest story in boxing, next to fixed fights.

 

[nastyleft]

I don't think mental issues had DLH coasting the end rounds during his fight with Trinidad. He thought he was ahead by a lot in the scorecards and since he was Vegas' darling at that time, it was just good strategy to get a W off a decision. Considering the long history of Vegas judges gifting decisions to the cash cows, it's kind of perplexing that DLH lost that fight.

https://www.eyeonthering.com/boxing/fight-millennium-oscar-de-la-hoya-vs-felix-trinidad

He deserved to lose that fight. He did nothing at all. Was kind of bizarre that he just avoided Trinidad the last 3-4 rounds. I really believe he didn't want anymore of it since he felt he did enough. The will of continuing to fight in spite of how badly Oscar was outclassing him I think took it's tool on Oscar. He wanted no more of a hard mentlly taxing physically challenging "perfect performance" contest and decided to cruise. He decided he either didn't want to or couldnt keep up that kind of performance to finish the show the way he started....so he cruised.
That is a mental decision too ya know. Oscar had some front-runner traits throughout his entire career if you look at it closely.

 

[nastyleft]

But he took Floyd to the brink when he was way past his best. He fought, at best, once a year, by the time he turned 29-30, and he was easily past his physical peak. If he did that when he was a shot older version of himself, it stands to reason he would have done much better if he were in his physical prime. That's how age works. He fought very close fights that he arguably won twice when he was younger (and allegedly behaving in a way that would have impacted his performance). So, why can't that version do as well. The version that made a strong case to beat Trinidad (your "phoning it in" statement was a bit misinformed, but it suits your narrative) and Mosley?

Floyd can adjust, no dispute, and you can actually put a finger out what he does, if you watch the tape. Floyd's an all time special talent, but people playing that Floyd fought guys at their peak all the time are kidding themselves.

We accept that technical boxers fade last. We must also appreciate that some guys get shot much sooner.

We look at the names of the guys he fought and he beat some great fighters. But they weren't at their greatest when he fought them: Cotto, Pacquiao, Oscar, Mosley. These were some of - or the - very best names on his resume. Were these guys in their prime? No.

I actually think Floyd's early career commands more respect than his later career. No jokes. He took fights against incredible names that stopped being as incredible, or he fought guys that were timely fighters, but not timeless fighters.

I know, I know, people will try and unzip and take a dump all over this, but it's true. Keep your pants up. A lot of fighters do this, so if Floyd does it, that doesn't make him better, that kind of makes him like a lot of the existing guys.

If Floyd fought all these guys in their absolute peak (like Oscar did when he picked up ALL of his losses), then Floyd would have some losses too. That's just the way it works. Nobody walks over peaking A fighters 100% of the time. NOBODY.

Name a fighter that did?

Peak Oscar makes the fight even closer, and maybe wins. Maybe loses, but I like his chances of winning.

All good points. Oscar would be much better physically, but I don't think the result gets much closer. Its the Mayweather factor that evens out their fight no matter when it would've happened. I know it sounds weird, but being faster, freasher, maybe stronger, isn't really a better combination to make it a closer fight....against probably the only guy in history where it wouldn't... Mentally, Oscar isnt as sound as he was at 34 yrs old. In Oscar's prime, experience wise, Oscar isn't as rounded at 26-27yrs old when he LOST twice to Trinidad and Mosley, as he was at 34. Are you telling me Oscar in his mid 20s was as savvy as Floyd at 30 when they actually fought? I'd take the 2007 Mayweather that fought ODLH and put him in the ring with ODLH that fought Mosley1 any day. I see what you're trying to say but, it's probably not too far from the same result. I don't see how many guys in history down the line can reasonably "beat" Floyd. He's the ultimate neutralizer, a trait still widely ignored.

 

[aries]

All good points. Oscar would be much better physically, but I don't think the result gets much closer. Its the Mayweather factor that evens out their fight no matter when it would've happened. I know it sounds weird, but being faster, freasher, maybe stronger, isn't really a better combination to make it a closer fight....against probably the only guy in history where it wouldn't... Mentally, Oscar isnt as sound as he was at 34 yrs old. In Oscar's prime, experience wise, Oscar isn't as rounded at 26-27yrs old when he LOST twice to Trinidad and Mosley, as he was at 34. Are you telling me Oscar in his mid 20s was as savvy as Floyd at 30 when they actually fought? I'd take the 2007 Mayweather that fought ODLH and put him in the ring with ODLH that fought Mosley1 any day. I see what you're trying to say but, it's probably not to far from the same result. I don't see how many guys in history down the line can reasonably "beat" Floyd. He's the ultimate neutralizer, a trait still widely ignored.

How far do you take that though? Could Floyd beat Prime RJJ? Ok that's silly. But how about Prime GGG? There has to be a limit where size becomes too much for even Floyd to over come.

 

[wilddeuces]

All good points. Oscar would be much better physically, but I don't think the result gets much closer. Its the Mayweather factor that evens out their fight no matter when it would've happened. I know it sounds weird, but being faster, freasher, maybe stronger, isn't really a better combination to make it a closer fight....against probably the only guy in history where it wouldn't... Mentally, Oscar isnt as sound as he was at 34 yrs old. In Oscar's prime, experience wise, Oscar isn't as rounded at 26-27yrs old when he LOST twice to Trinidad and Mosley, as he was at 34. Are you telling me Oscar in his mid 20s was as savvy as Floyd at 30 when they actually fought? I'd take the 2007 Mayweather that fought ODLH and put him in the ring with ODLH that fought Mosley1 any day. I see what you're trying to say but, it's probably not to far from the same result. I don't see how many guys in history down the line can reasonably "beat" Floyd. He's the ultimate neutralizer, a trait still widely ignored.

I think it's Oscar's inconsistency from switching trainers that makes it hard for people to have an open and shut case in this conversation. He switched trainers so much he never really got settled. He and a trainer never really got the chance to gel and see what could be done in the long run. I think that screwed Oscar worse than him running at legit peaking A+ level talent when they were at their best. Floyd was consistent, so there's always that, and Floyd always came on strong later in the fight. He's not a sprinter, he's a long distance kind of guy.

If we take Oscar at his physical and most ferocious - dialed in, I'd go to the 98-99 version - not the one that reeled it in against Trinidad. JCC and Quartey wins. Although those weren't his best wins, though they were good ones, he just looked savage and sharp. I think if that version got in the ring with the Floyd from their 2007 fight, he might pick up more of the earlier and middle rounds. Remember, you only need 7 to win a 12 round fight. While Floyd usually picks up more rounds than he loses in the last third of the fight, ODLH might get going and make Floyd have to fight out of a real deficit. That version of Oscar I am drawing your attention to was a destroyer with his jab, too.

So, going back, Floyd is a more reliable pick because of his consistency, but if we are talking the best version of Oscar, turning up for one night, we have a real problem for Floyd. We usually see the best version of Floyd, so that is a constant. His dedication is admirable. But Oscar, while brimming with talent, just couldn't regulate and maintain.

I totally see the arguments in Mayweather's favour, but during these hypothetical chats, all you need to consider is the best possible version of the fighter at that designated time in his career. The more you do that, the more you see how close a lot of these fights get.

 

[nastyleft]

How far do you take that though? Could Floyd beat Prime RJJ? Ok that's silly. But how about Prime GGG? There has to be a limit where size becomes too much for even Floyd to over come.

What are you talking about??!!! Oscar and Floyd were both Welterweights in their prime. Don't bring guys that never fought in the division into this discussion. Now if you're talking equal size with same skill, then ok Floyd and RJJ is a very close interesting fight, but RJJ would be too much. GGG gets schooled badly, if they were all the same size. But that's not this discussion.