Modern weight (category), All time great.

[Boxer]

Wanted to get your impressions on who would of been the greatest Cruiser Weight of all time.

As a relatively new weight class a lot of former "Heavy weights" if they competed today would of been in this weight category.
Cruiser weight was only introduced in 1980 post the era of the last of the small HW champ's which was Joe Frazier.
After that and just prior the arrival of the likes of Foreman, Holmes, Ali, Sonny Liston, Shavers etc mean't that the gap in size from LHW to HW was just to big.
Cruiserweight gets a bit of bad rap because a lot of CW's jump up to HW to go after big name fights but taking into account past and future talents between 81kg - 91kg it could of been extremely interesting.

Here's a list of contenders ........

Jack Johnson - Surprisingly, at stages weighed as little as 200-204lbs, did weigh more later in career though.
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Joe Frazier - Including him because he fought a lot of his fights at 204 lbs, he could of easily lost 4lbs to make CW limit of 200lbs.
Evander Holyfield
James Toney
David Haye
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
Johnny Nelson
Virgil Hill
Jean Marc Mormeck
Enzo Maccarinelli
Denis Lebedev

As you can see if CW was a category during the early 20th century it would of had a much richer history.

Who gets your vote, top 3 in order?

 

[stuff]

Rocky Marciano weighed 180 at the beginning of his career to 185 pounds at the end. With modern day weight cutting Rocky Marciano could have easily competed at Light Heavyweight 175 lbs, Super Middleweight 168 lbs, or even Middleweight 160 lbs. It would be very fun to see Rocky fight Ward, Kovalev, or Golovkin. Ward and Kovalev are both taller. Rocky is the same height as Golovkin. I think Rocky would be able to bully Ward and win that fight.

 

[cottagecheesefan]

Thinking of Dwight Muhammad Qawi vs James Toney are Cruiser makes me very not flaccid.

Walcott, Fraizer, Holyfield are my picks of who would be the best out of all of them... Holyfield being my top pick I think.

 

[nac386]

No way in hell Marciano is making 160 with that frame. I don't see him making 168 either, he would have been on death's doorstep.

 

[Boxer]

Rocky Marciano weighed 180 at the beginning of his career to 185 pounds at the end. With modern day weight cutting Rocky Marciano could have easily competed at Light Heavyweight 175 lbs, Super Middleweight 168 lbs, or even Middleweight 160 lbs. It would be very fun to see Rocky fight Ward, Kovalev, or Golovkin. Ward and Kovalev are both taller. Rocky is the same height as Golovkin. I think Rocky would be able to bully Ward and win that fight.

Marciano fought quite a few fights as heavy as 190lbs if not slightly over, looking at boxing rec his avge fighting weight was 185lbs - 190lbs.

Also remember he trained like a savage according to experts at the time so wasn't carrying any fat.
To go down in weight he'd be cutting water weight so I agree he could of made LHW, think MW would be a big stretch for a man of his natural size.

My top 3 .........

Joe Frazier
Evander Holyfield

I'm torn between Rocky Marciano and James Toney.
Archie Moore had a similar defensive capability to Toney and Marciano overcame that for a stoppage, Toney is stronger than Moore though so I'm split for 3rd.

Frazier in his prime vs any of these guys though would of been a wet dream, would of been great to see Joe fighting talented guys but without giving up all that weight disadvantage.

Frazier vs Holyfield ....... would have been an absolute war.

 

[Seano]

No one on that list beats prime Holyfield. Not even James Toney.

 

[JayE]

No one on that list beats prime Holyfield. Not even James Toney.

Frazier definitely could.

 

[makedansure]

qawi gave holyfield hell, no?

I think Toney could beat prime cruiser holyfield.

 

[makedansure]

NOT because Toney is higher on this list, but because styles make fights. Also, I'm not suggesting that Toney is just a bigger Qawi, but I do think Toney beats "prime" holy.

 

[Sunfish]

Johnny nelson
David haye
Jean Marc mormeck

Said no one ever.

Holyfield beats all of them.
Frazier would be difficult to beat
Toney was fat at cruiser, but maybe I'd put him third of the names you mentioned.

If Roy had stopped at cruiser not gone up to beat Ruiz he would be on the list.

 

[Boxer]

Johnny nelson
David haye
Jean Marc mormeck

Said no one ever.

Holyfield beats all of them.
Frazier would be difficult to beat
Toney was fat at cruiser, but maybe I'd put him third of the names you mentioned.

If Roy had stopped at cruiser not gone up to beat Ruiz he would be on the list.

David Haye is highly rated at CW, the others are on there as filler names who did well at the weight.

I have to disagree with you on Roy Jones, Roy was my childhood hero (well late teens) so I know his tendencies well, the issue with Roy is he doesn't adapt to his weight, he fights like he did at Super MW and won't adjust.

People blame age for why he's so poor at CW currently but then explain Hopkins etc, Roy's issue is he try's to fight like a speed fighter even though he's weighing in at 200 lbs and is 5'11.

Dancing around, light pot shots, the top CW's just walk through that.

I'll give you an example ...........

Joe Frazier - 5'11.5 - 204 lbs
RJ - 5'11 - 198 lbs

Almost the same size but Frazier fights like a heavy shorter fighter and Roy Jones does not.

 

[ssx]

1. Holyfield
2. Frazier
3. Michael Spinks

 

[Sunfish]

David Haye is highly rated at CW, the others are on there as filler names who did well at the weight.

I have to disagree with you on Roy Jones, Roy was my childhood hero (well late teens) so I know his tendencies well, the issue with Roy is he doesn't adapt to his weight, he fights like he did at Super MW and won't adjust.

People blame age for why he's so poor at CW currently but then explain Hopkins etc, Roy's issue is he try's to fight like a speed fighter even though he's weighing in at 200 lbs and is 5'11.

Dancing around, light pot shots, the top CW's just walk through that.

I'll give you an example ...........

Joe Frazier - 5'11.5 - 204 lbs
RJ - 5'11 - 198 lbs

Almost the same size but Frazier fights like a heavy shorter fighter and Roy Jones does not.

Which is why Holyfield and Frazier would stop him. If he weighed in at the cruiser minimum I can see him being a handful but I understand what you're saying. You do realise I'm talking if Roy did this prior to hw, and not as a walking heavy bag?

 

[Seano]

Frazier definitely could.

I don't see it. Whats Frazier going to do? Knock him out?

 

[JayE]

I don't see it. Whats Frazier going to do? Knock him out?

He might try to punch him. Now I can't guarantee that, but I think there is a chance.

 

[Boxer]

I don't see it. Whats Frazier going to do? Knock him out?

Tbf is Holyfield anymore of a handful than prime Ali? chin wise, speed wise, reach wise? because Holyfield is similar in height and stature (Ali is obviously heavier) and Frazier was 1-2 with Ali.

I mention those in particular because they pretty much all went the distance showing Frazier can go into deep water and achieve a win on points.

Holyfield would be lighter and well ..... he's not Ali.

Me personally Frazier vs Holyfield at CW would be the division dream fight.

As a footnote, James Toney took Holyfield out (albeit at age 40) and was a quality shorter fighter, Frazier hits harder and more often than Toney.

 

[JayE]

qawi gave holyfield hell, no?

I think Toney could beat prime cruiser holyfield.

Qawi fought a lot differently than Toney (and Holyfield did a job on Qawi in their rematch; however, Qawi's success suggests to me that Frazier, a bigger, better version of Qawi, could beat a prime Holyfield). Toney wouldn't be easy to beat (and he wouldn't get stopped), but the Jirov era Toney (which is the version I assume we're referring to) didn't have the speed and workrate to compete with a prime CW Holyfield on the outside. He'd get outworked and lose on the cards.

 

[HuskySamoan]

These older boxers would lose, what the fuck are you guys talking about? Andre Ward would clown Marciano at 168 or 175. Henry Armstrong is arguably the greatest boxer of all time but he'd get humiliated by Lomachenko or Garcia.

Boxers in terms of skill, athleticism and access to knowledge, science, nutrition, training methods etc are much better now than they ever were in general of any era, with few exceptions. Anthony Joshua would destroy Muhammad Ali, Holyfield would box Frazier up too.

Are you guys having comic book nerd talk where we take a hypothetical Muhammad Ali/Marciano etc as if they came up training in modern times too? Or do you really think a 1970 Joe Frazier walks through a time portal and destroys every Cruiserweight?

 

[JayE]

These older boxers would lose, what the fuck are you guys talking about? Andre Ward would clown Marciano at 168 or 175. Henry Armstrong is arguably the greatest boxer of all time but he'd get humiliated by Lomachenko or Garcia.

Boxers in terms of skill, athleticism and access to knowledge, science, nutrition, training methods etc are much better now than they ever were in general of any era, with few exceptions. Anthony Joshua would destroy Muhammad Ali, Holyfield would box Frazier up too.

Are you guys having comic book nerd talk where we take a hypothetical Muhammad Ali/Marciano etc as if they came up training in modern times too? Or do you really think a 1970 Joe Frazier walks through a time portal and destroys every Cruiserweight?

But would Kubrat Pulev?

 

[BluntTrauma21]

1. Holyfield
2. Frazier
3. Michael Spinks

Spinks is a good shout.