Michael Gerson on rightwing Evangelicalism

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That sounds like a pretty specific passage.

As for "how to beat your slave" it sound more like an admonishment to treat your slaves well - if you beat him to death there will be consequences.

Exodus 21:20-21:21: And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Is this what you would characterize as Christian morality?
 
Either slavery is wrong, or it is right. Humans decided for ourselves, directly int he face of the bible, that it was to be abolished. God was wrong on the question of slavery.

You can't claim God's goodness then make excuses for him left and right, and expect anyone to take your immorality seriously.

You neglect all those Christian aboloshonists that fought to end slavery.

You want to give the credit to humans or to Lincoln or whoever, but it was evangelicals that lead the movement to end it and they claimed their Christian conviction was what moved them.

Hey, but you understand Christianity better than the people that risked their life trying to end slavery. Pfft
 
Exodus 21:20-21:21: And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Is this what you would characterize as Christian morality?

Under Christianity the slave is his brother and should be set free because we wouldn't want to be slaves.

And the second (greatest commandment) is like the first, to love your neighbor as yourself
 
You neglect all those Christian aboloshonists that fought to end slavery.

You want to give the credit to humans or to Lincoln or whoever, but it was evangelicals that lead the movement to end it and they claimed their Christian conviction was what moved them.

Hey, but you understand Christianity better than the people that risked their life trying to end slavery. Pfft

I don't care about the abolitionists. They found a line or two that they interpreted as being vaguely against slavery while the book, old and new testament, comes down clearly on one side.

And if you really, honestly think the anti slavery movement was founded, or in principle a christian one, I would enjoin you to actually educate yourself on men like Thomas Paine in England and America. Mother of god.
 
You made the negative claim and sited zero evidence. I mean you could at least post 1 scholar that supports your notion, but I doubt you'll find even 1 to make such an ignorant claim.

You see what you want from that study, fact is that poorer people have worse lives and poorer people hold on to their religion tightly because it's the 1 thing they do have.

A negative claim? Fuck, dude. Here's how it works You make the positive claim that money changers were a corrupt institution in first century Jerusalem, despite their purpose being integral to the operation of the Jewish State. You provided a single mishna and bible passage each, and used them as proof, while no reputable scholar, or any thinking person takes these books as being proof for anything historically or culturally.
 
Under Christianity the slave is his brother and should be set free because we wouldn't want to be slaves.

And the second (greatest commandment) is like the first, to love your neighbor as yourself

The ten commandments are for Jews only. That's why God says thou shalt do no murder, then commands his chosen to go down the mountain and murder people.
 
Are you now, or have you at any time in the past, worn a garment mixed of two fibers, and if so, have you repented, and if not why not?

Deuteronomy 22:11 and Leviticus 19:19 hold the key to salvation.
Ephesians 2: 10
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.
 
Exodus 21:20-21:21: And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Is this what you would characterize as Christian morality?
Lol such understanding, much mastery.

Tell me who is the attended audience in Exodus? Jew or christian?
 
The problem is that Christianity is supposed to teach universal morality, not relativism. Take fornication (sex outside of marriage). The apostles repeatedly condemned it. Fornication didn't get a "that's just the way things are" pass. I've come to really struggle with how the NT strongly condemns nommarital consensual sex but condones slavery. It's the exact opposite of how I feel.

Treating people well and that we should love each other was going to be carried on through time. Culture and customs change over long periods of time. The bible doesn't say keep slavery alive forever.
 
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Under Christianity the slave is his brother and should be set free because we wouldn't want to be slaves.

And the second (greatest commandment) is like the first, to love your neighbor as yourself

How far does "neighbor" extend, exactly? Reading through the bible, it doesn't seem like neighbor covers much further than your own tribe. God literally orders the genocide of several peoples who were "neighbors" of the hebrews. But that's off topic.

Leviticus 25:44 says: Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

At this point you, if you're honest, you have to admit that it is unquestionably clear that god is giving the green light for slavery. The handful of verses in this thread (and there are many more), are instructions from god on how one is to conduct their slavery.

Point to the part of your book where it states unequivocally that slavery is immoral. So far I have shown that, according to god, slavery is permissible.

Side note: I'm using the King James version for my bible quotes because so many people consider it to be the 'real' version. Going forward I think I will use something readable like the NIV.
 
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Because too many poster's are having problems with the issue of slavery.

  1. Slaves under the Mosaic Law were different from the harshly treated slaves of other societies; they were more like servants or bondservants.
  2. The Bible doesn’t give an endorsement of slave traders but just the opposite (1 Timothy 1:10). A slave/bondservant was acquired when a person voluntarily entered into it when he needed to pay off his debts.
  3. The Bible recognizes that slavery is a reality in this sin-cursed world and doesn’t ignore it, but instead gives regulations for good treatment by both masters and servants and reveals they are equal under Christ.
  4. Israelites could sell themselves as slaves/bondservants to have their debts covered, make a wage, have housing, and be set free after six years. Foreigners could sell themselves as slaves/bondservants as well.
  5. Biblical Christians led the fight to abolish harsh slavery in modern times.

Some people condemn the Bible for not abolishing slavery outright. However, the primary goal of the gospel was not sweeping social change but individual spiritual change. When enough hearts are changed, society will change. All it takes is enough Philemons to see a slave "as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord," and slavery as an institution would disappear. If the world followed the Bible, the millions of sex-trafficking victims would be freed and cared for, and the vast majority of labor-trafficking victims would be home with their families.

Slavery occurs because of a need, real or perceived. In biblical times, the need was the repayment of family debts. Today, the "need" is cheap goods and cheap sex. The statutes in the Bible specifically speak against the abuse of anyone, including slaves.
 
Treating people well and that we should love each other was going to be carried on through time. Culture and customs change over long periods of time. The bible doesn't say keep slavery alive forever.

Do you think nonmarital consensual sex is worse than slavery?
 
  1. The Bible recognizes that slavery is a reality in this sin-cursed world and doesn’t ignore it, but instead gives regulations for good treatment by both masters and servants and reveals they are equal under Christ.

Why is there this pragmatic approach for slavery but not fornication? In other words, people have biological urges, why is all sex outside of marriage evil and off limits but slavery is accepted as "a reality" to be regulated?
 
Why is there this pragmatic approach for slavery but not fornication? In other words, people have biological urges, why is all sex outside of marriage evil and off limits but slavery is accepted as "a reality" to be regulated?
Your pragmatic approach to fornication is called marriage.
 
Because too many poster's are having problems with the issue of slavery.

Slaves under the Mosaic Law were different from the harshly treated slaves of other societies; they were more like servants or bondservants.
Mosaic slavers could beat their slaves to death and suffer no penalty because the loss of the slave was considered penalty enough. I love how Christians try to retcon history as if we don't have a very good idea of exactly how bad it was for slaves during the savage and primal periods covered in the bible.

lol at every slave master was Uncle Phil and all the slaves were butlers like Geoffrey. Are you stupid enough to believe that? Are you stupid enough to think anyone believes that?
The Bible doesn’t give an endorsement of slave traders but just the opposite (1 Timothy 1:10). A slave/bondservant was acquired when a person voluntarily entered into it when he needed to pay off his debts.
Leviticus 25:44: Your male and female slaves are to be from the nations around you; you may purchase male and female slaves. A contradiction in the Wholly Fable? I'm shocked...SHOCKED!
The Bible recognizes that slavery is a reality in this sin-cursed world and doesn’t ignore it, but instead gives regulations for good treatment by both masters and servants and reveals they are equal under Christ.
God says do not eat shellfish, mix fabrics, murder, or covet; he does not say "do not own people as property", but rather gives rules for how slavery should be conducted. If god thought slavery immoral, wicked, a stain on humanity, he could have just included that in his list of 600~ commandments thorough the OT.

Some people condemn the Bible for not abolishing slavery outright. However, the primary goal of the gospel was not sweeping social change but individual spiritual change. When enough hearts are changed, society will change. All it takes is enough Philemons to see a slave "as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord," and slavery as an institution would disappear.

What kind of pantywaist weak ass god do you believe in? One that can't plainly tell its creation that owning other people as property is an abomination?

lol at you having to practice apologetics for your lame duck god.
 
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Why shouldn't people be able to have sex outside of marriage? Why is it immoral?
Because God listed it under numerous times as to why not.

Do you not see the rampant problems born out of fornication? Bastard children, stds, abortions, sex trafficking, prostitution, pornography, sexual idolatry. That's just a easy few reasons as to why.
 
Because God listed it under numerous times as to why not.

Do you not see the rampant problems born out of fornication? Bastard children, stds, abortions, sex trafficking, prostitution, pornography, sexual idolatry. That's just a easy few reasons as to why.

"Bastard children". That's a separate issue. Is it not possible to fornicate and take care of any children that result from it?

"STDs". People can fornicate without getting them.

"Abortion". That's another separate issue. Isn't it possible to fornicate and give birth to children that result from it?

"Sex trafficking". Another separate issue.

"Prostitution". Another separate issue. Why not prohibit prostitution but allow nonmarital consensual sex in which no payment is made?

"Pornography". Another separate issue.

"Sex idolatry". Is it impossible to have nonmarital consensual sex without worship being involved?

As long as a person doesn't do any of the things you listed, is fornication okay?
 
Do you think nonmarital consensual sex is worse than slavery?

Sin is bad for the soul. If I was alive during the time of slavery I wouldn't like seeing slaves being treating like crap.

Nowadays people are paid for their labor. The boss should treat his workers well and provide safe and healthy working conditions.
 
Mosaic slavers could beat their slaves to death and suffer no penalty because the loss of the slave was considered penalty enough. I love how Christians try to retcon history as if we don't have a very good idea of exactly how bad it was for slaves during the savage and primal periods covered in the bible.

Whoops try better next time.

Exodus 21: 20-21
Death is the punishment for beating to death any of your slaves. 21 However, if the slave lives a few days after the beating, you are not to be punished. After all, you have already lost the services of that slave who was your property.

lol at every slave master was Uncle Phil and all the slaves were butlers like Geoffrey. Are you stupid enough to believe that? Are you stupid enough to think anyone believes that?

Leviticus 25:44: Your male and female slaves are to be from the nations around you; you may purchase male and female slaves. A contradiction in the Wholly Fable? I'm shocked...SHOCKED!

God says do not eat shellfish, mix fabrics, murder, or covet; he does not say "do not own people as property", but rather gives rules for how slavery should be conducted. If god thought slavery immoral, wicked, a stain on humanity, he could have just included that in his list of 600~ commandments thorough the OT.



What kind of pantywaist weak ass god do you believe in? One that can't plainly tell its creation that owning other people as property is an abomination?

lol at you having to practice apologetics for your lame duck god.
Yawn.

And for all this shit posting, my rebuttal was already provided to you in my stand alone post. Trying harder and typing with an elevated BP doesn't make anything you posted have more substantiation. But here have another bone;

Slave owners are limited in what they can do: if the master goes too far and the slave dies, the master will be punished. If the Old Testament Law is followed consistently, then the punishment for the slave owner might even include the death penalty for murder. Of course, if a master beats his slave and the slave is unable to work for some time, the master has punished himself by losing the work he might have received from the slave. The implication here is that it is in the master’s best interest not to be too severe.

Slavery has been a fact of human existence for almost as long as the human race has been in existence. Physical punishment to enforce compliance has been part of slavery for just as long. Corporal punishment has also been used in situations other than slavery. For example, physical chastisements were commonly employed as punishment for crimes committed and for the enforcing of discipline in the military. We are not so far removed from the time when brutal physical punishment was administered and accepted by almost everyone as legitimate. In the British Navy, flogging for disobedience or insubordination was common until the mid-19th century, and caning was used until the mid-20th century. In some places, such as Singapore, caning is still an official form of punishment for certain crimes.

Question(s) for you. How does it feel to know you will stand before God and be judged no matter what you believe or don't believe? A little over / under would be cool on how you think its going to fair for you breh.
 
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