Lloyd Irvin's students accused of brutal rape (Part 2)

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Also, based on the chronology of who entered the room, it sounds like Gatling and Irvin were probably the men who held the victim down when Evans tried to rape her:

Physician Supports Story Of Gang Rape
March 23, 1991|By RONNIE CROCKER Staff Writer
http://articles.dailypress.com/1991...man-bowie-state-university-hampton-university
Evans said the woman ordered everybody out but the first two men, but that the others crowded around the door. Later, after the crowd left, Gatling and Lloyd E. Irvin Jr. went in. Evans said he followed them in, sat at the foot of the bed and listened as the two men had sex with her.

``I was curious,'' he explained in a tense exchange with Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Aundria D. Foster.

Evans said that after Gatling and Irvin left the room, he approached the woman from behind and began massaging her shoulders. But when he tried to get her to lean back for him, she pushed him away and he fell off the bed. He said he immediately left the room.

Evans told his lawyer that he wanted to have sex with the woman, but ``only with her consent.''

On Thursday, the woman presented a much different version of the incident, which lasted into the early morning of Oct. 8.

She testified that she had already been raped and sodomized, and that some of the men in the apartment were holding her down when Evans approached her and tried to have sex. She said she freed herself just long enough to push him away.


She said Evans punched her in the mouth, cursed her and stormed off.

Smith, the physician, testified that the woman had a bruised lower lip when she came to Riverside.​

Boom, headshot. Evans, one of the rapists, confirms '89 Irvin and Gattling were having sex with the woman. '89 Irvin's claimed impotency should have been dismissed because of this.

And you're right, from the chronology of the other testimony, '89 Irvin and Gatling were likely the ones holding the victim down for Evans, ergo they knew it was a rape and not consensual.
 
Boom, headshot. Evans, one of the rapists, confirms '89 Irvin and Gattling were having sex with the woman. '89 Irvin's claimed impotency should have been dismissed because of this.

And you're right, from the chronology of the other testimony, '89 Irvin and Gatling were likely the ones holding the victim down for Evans, ergo they knew it was a rape and not consensual.

Wow. This needs to be put on a webpage dedicated to this. Awful stuff, but needed
 
Even better! A non-response in the form of a deflection.

At any point do you plan to admit how royally wrong you were just proven? By facts, not opinions.

Has it occurred to you that I might be reading the articles 100% linked and writing a response? Jackass.
 
You guys are focusing your attention on a completely different matter at hand. This has nothing to do with Lloyd Irvin and everything to do with two completely independent adults who raped a girl. The only common denominator is that they met at the same school, which doesn't immediately implicate the owner of the school in anything.
 
You guys are focusing your attention on a completely different matter at hand. This has nothing to do with Lloyd Irvin and everything to do with two completely independent adults who raped a girl. The only common denominator is that they met at the same school, which doesn't immediately implicate the owner of the school in anything.

It might help if you'd read even a few of the last 100 pages of this thread to know that that is not what people are complaining about.
 
Also, based on the chronology of who entered the room, it sounds like Gatling and Irvin were probably the men who held the victim down when Evans tried to rape her:

Agreed. The testimony that Gatling & Irvin claimed to be invited does indeed nullify the "we just assumed she was consenting" theory. This happening at the end of the incident means someone has to be lying. The invitation makes the two stories incompatible. She would never invite someone after being raped, and I refuse to believe that she made everything up. If someone is lying, it has to be Irvin & Gatling. I won't call the victim a liar.

Once it's established they lied, everything else they testified to comes into question. If he lied about an invitation, he obviously could have lied about penetration.

The chronology about Evans was muddled in some of the other articles. They also weren't clear on whether Gatling & Irvin were in the room at the time. The "soldier" article clarifies this as being at the end of the incident, and places Gatling & Irvin in the room. There's no way they could think it was consentual based on the exchange with Evans.

Thanks for linking the additional articles. Some pretty important information in there, and I can see where that would make it seem like I was deliberately ignoring these facts, when I simply hadn't seen them. My apologies for dragging that part out.
 
The third post above mine is about LI. Maybe you've skipped a few pages?

Edit: LOL. I tried to post this and someone had already posted about LI again, even before I could say anything. I'm pretty sure you need glasses.
 
Irvin now more than ever needs to account for these findings. Disgusting revelations.
 
You guys are focusing your attention on a completely different matter at hand. This has nothing to do with Lloyd Irvin and everything to do with two completely independent adults who raped a girl. The only common denominator is that they met at the same school, which doesn't immediately implicate the owner of the school in anything.

You're clearly 108+ pages behind on this story.
This issue has inherently unearthed dirt on Lloyd Irvin which is a grave cause for concern
 
Agreed. The testimony that Gatling & Irvin claimed to be invited does indeed nullify the "we just assumed she was consenting" theory. This happening at the end of the incident means someone has to be lying. The invitation makes the two stories incompatible. She would never invite someone after being raped, and I refuse to believe that she made everything up. If someone is lying, it has to be Irvin & Gatling. I won't call the victim a liar.

Once it's established they lied, everything else they testified to comes into question. If he lied about an invitation, he obviously could have lied about penetration.

The chronology about Evans was muddled in some of the other articles. They also weren't clear on whether Gatling & Irvin were in the room at the time. The "soldier" article clarifies this as being at the end of the incident, and places Gatling & Irvin in the room. There's no way they could think it was consentual based on the exchange with Evans.

Thanks for linking the additional articles. Some pretty important information in there, and I can see where that would make it seem like I was deliberately ignoring these facts, when I simply hadn't seen them. My apologies for dragging that part out.

I'm really pleased to hear you say this, KGB. While I saw things differently from you, I didn't agree with the people who were dismissing you as a troll. I hope that other people will see this and realize that, even on the internet, reasoned discussion can sometimes allow people to resolve differences in opinion.
 
The third post above mine is about LI. Maybe you've skipped a few pages?

Edit: LOL. I tried to post this and someone had already posted about LI again, even before I could say anything. I'm pretty sure you need glasses.

Yes, they are posting about LI.

But you're the one that needs glasses.

No one here is claiming that the issue of the two people raping their teammate is related specifically to LI. That is not what they are complaining about, as you seem to suggest.

Rather, they are discussing the completely independent issue of rape charges that were brought about LI himself in 1990, which involved a gang rape of a 17 year female by at least 7 men.

Go back. Read some. Do more research before talking shit.

tumblr_m5pjxndGMZ1rwcc6bo1_250.gif
 
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I'm really pleased to hear you say this, KGB. While I saw things differently from you, I didn't agree with the people who were dismissing you as a troll. I hope that other people will see this and realize that, even on the internet, reasoned discussion can sometimes allow people to resolve differences in opinion.

When called out on never conceding a point, and then faced with obvious documented evidence of willfully missed information, the troll attempts to save the troll account by conceding the lost point.

I have some land in Florida for sale, btw. In the market?
 
When called out on never conceding a point, and then faced with obvious documented evidence of willfully missed information, the troll attempts to save the troll account by conceding the lost point.

I have some land in Florida for sale, btw. In the market?

Yeah, I "willfully" missed information by not checking the entire 1000 post thread for new links for articles. :rolleyes:

Douchebag.
 
Originally Posted by KGB256
Yeah, I "willfully" missed information by not checking the entire 1000 post thread for new links for articles.

Douchebag.

2,000 post thread (because there was a part 1) :D

Yes willfully. When someone spends an *entire* 2000 post thread hard disputing every point, telling people what they don't know, one should at least make sure one has read the core documents on which the arguments are being made.

Someone didn't because someone is either mentally ill or a very persistent troll.

Now, back to the caves of ignorance for you, troll.
 
I think many people do not understand the difference between "a shadow of a doubt" and "reasonable doubt". Well, of course there is no proof beyond a shadow of a doubt, that is impossible and is not even the legal standard in most places. The standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". But this has lead to some wild theories about what "could'a happened".

I have seen a few people actually saying something close to "there is no proof beyond a shadow of a doubt because he said/she said/it was dark/he was in the other room etc". If that were the case then there would be no need for a legal system, because an accused person could simply say "It was a man who looked very much like me, but it was not me. Think about it, and let's set about to capture this impostor!" BOOM! Shadow of a doubt, case closed, completely innocent.

:rolleyes:


The main area of doubt is about positively identifying who did what - I agree with an earlier comment that the jury probably felt she could not identify LI because his friend was orally sodomizing her. Further doubt came from his claim of impotence. In this context it was assumed by the jury that the whole situation was rape and everyone involved knew it, or should have reasonably known it, but there was reasonable doubt in LI's case about whether he penetrated her. That much I think everyone agrees on - except the condition of "reasonably knowing she was not a willing participant"...


Some posters, such as KGB, are arguing that there is some doubt on the grounds that LI could have thought the girl was willing - despite acknowledging that everyone else in the room was rightfully convicted (which in KGB's argument means they knew she was not willing which is information that LI may not have had).

Fair enough, read on.


It has been argued that he was in the other room, or the room was dark and he was drunk and possibly stupid/naive - but likely not evil - and therefore may not have known it was rape. Stupidity and ignorance are not crimes per se, but stupid actions can be if you break the law - even if you do not know that you are breaking the law.

Would he be stupid/naive/"young" for not thinking things through a bit more and coming to the conclusion that she was not willing? Let's say yes, as some of his defenders have done.

Does simply not knowing it was rape excuse him from raping her?

No. Because then everyone else in the room except the guys who threatened her would be set free and stupidity/ignorance of all kinds would be a get out of jail free card.


So the argument from KGB is plausible, maybe LI really didn't know. But, he really should have known, and ignorance/stupidity/sobriety/age are not excuses.



"I didn't know you can't hold a woman down, cover her mouth, and have sex with her. Besides, watching my friend jam his penis in her mouth was kind of a turn off so I lost my erection. And so I'll just go home now, bye!"

:rolleyes:



"But but but...he could have not known!!"
 
I thought Jimmy's statements about "europeans are two weeks away! Can't let this interfere!" were kind of funny, ridiculous, and sad in equal measure. As if there will never be any more comps for a 20 year old brown belt.

Don't let a little thing like rape, rape coverup, victim blaming, cultish family-severing, a culture of misogyny, pyramid scheme financial scams, etc stand in the way of training.

WTF? This is the mindset the 3% fuck the haters mantra produces? Sweep rape under the rug to win bjj comp?

On the other hand, it *is* a shame that keenan's great run is being affected by this issue. Illustrates the need to choose your friends and partners carefully - you are known by the company you keep.

The funny thing is, let's be fair they are all good fighters but every single one of them is just not good enough at the moment. JT constantly chokes when it comes down to the wire, DJ can't pass anyone at the higher levels guard, Easton just got smoked by Assuncao, Vera constantly disappoints, Phil Davis choked in his biggest test to date and without sounding negative, Keenan just lost every single match in his 'breakout' tournament, people were talking about wanting to see him against Rodolfo, like there was a chance he was going to win.

For all their talk, they just ain't good enough at the higher levels. I'll probably get flamed for this post, but like it or not, they are the facts...
 
So the argument from KGB is plausible, maybe LI really didn't know. But, he really should have known, and ignorance/stupidity/sobriety/age are not excuses.

I don't mean to minimize your contribution, but while you were typing that up I provided some details that KGB was unaware of and, as a result, he has disavowed his earlier position. The consensus seems to be that Lloyd probably raped the victim himself and also helped restrain her for others.
 
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