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Lifting weights and Boxing. | Page 7

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Crimson Glory, Mar 8, 2017.

  1. panamaican Steel Belt

    panamaican
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    Targeting specific muscles and ROM for strength training is still strength training. The muscles don't operate any differently just because you're targeting a smaller subset of them.

    Also strength training. Specifically that you want strength training that targets the type of actions that you're going to be performing in the sport. No one disagrees with that. But he's still talking about strength training as a different set of activities from technique training.

    Also strength training as separate from technique training.

    None of your listed articles state that the best way to train is solely sport repetition. They state that your strength and conditioning program should be tailored to improve muscle development for what you need and that isn't the same as same going into the gym and maxing out any general exercise for hypertrophy. Sport specific training does not mean only doing your sport to build strength. It means building strength for the specific sport that you're in.

    I linked a study already that demonstrated that experienced punchers use more leg in their technique than inexperienced punchers, who use more upper body. So sport specific training would prioritize increasing leg strength over increasing upper body strength.

    Technique training is what moves the inexperience puncher from relying on his upper body to his lower body. That improves his punching. Increasing leg strength adds power, increasing upper body strength has fewer benefits. Increasing all 3 means the more power. Increasing all 3 with athletic importance in mind is best of all.

    Strength training and technique training are 2 completely different but complementary things. I've never run across a martial art that says that strength training is irrelevant. Even the most Mcdojo-ish of Mcdojo's does push ups. That's strength training. The heavy bag is strength training.

    But just because there are lots of ways to accomplish strength training doesn't mean that they're all equally effective.

    I had a quote from George Foreman that I didn't include and here's what he said (paraphrased) "The idea that boxers shouldn't strength train must have come from some champion boxer to his competition. I lift weights 40 minutes a session." George Foreman, an all time great fighter, known for his strength, states that the idea of not lifting doesn't make sense to him. Sports teams spend millions of dollars on improving strength and conditioning in their athletes (who are also in technique driven sports) but for some reason, people still think that strength training is something that isn't important. When the people getting paid millions strength train, the rest of us should listen.

    I cited Foreman, here's an article on MAyweather:

    Anderson Silva lifted weights. Tyson did calisthentics. The list is endless. At this stage of the game, eeryone who fights for money understands the importance of strength training. They might use different programs but no one is just doing drills and technique training to build strength.

    The science has already told us to move on.
     
    #121
  2. panamaican Steel Belt

    panamaican
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    Source that the muscles operate differently. That muscle contraction and relaxation operate differently because of how you strengthen them.

    It's the internet, we don't have to guess.
     
    #122
  3. Sano Brown Belt

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    Yeah I see what you're saying. You make a good point about some of it transfering. I definitely think that too, I just think how much specificly from doing squats is hard to really say. Let's say that one person did squats with a barbell and improved their 1RM there with 50%, another one did deadlift and improved 50%, another one trap bar 50%, and yet another did a single leg exercise and improved their 1RM there with 50%. Would they improve equally in terms of added punching power? The thing is that while they all work most of the lower body, they work different muscles, at different angles in different synergies. Both as stabilizers and movers.

    I think of it more as a base of potential too, and as injury prevention. I also agree that someone weaker will benefit more from overall strength training. I do however think that strength is not necessarily just strength and doesn't transfer equally among training modalities and exercises.
     
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  4. panamaican Steel Belt

    panamaican
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    Are you saying that a 200 pound out of shape individual can generate the same power when transfering weight as an in shape 200 lb individual solely because they are applying the same technique? Even if one is as slow as molasses?
     
    #124
  5. MaxMMA Orange Belt

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    It doesn't matter what their "shape" is, if they weigh the same, and they are applying the exact same technique(impossible for several reasons) then yes they can generate the same power.
     
    #125
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  6. MaxMMA Orange Belt

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    Sano got my back on them sources
     
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  7. a guy Black Belt

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    Yea I think we're on the same page. Strength isn't just strength, because (as you said) the muscles are being worked in somewhat different ways + the neurological differences. Some exercises probably transfer better than others,but all will translate somewhat--and I definitely agree that it's hard to say exactly how much strength will translate. It's not 0% and it's not 100%, but it's up for debate how much. Personally, I'd argue that once you practice technique with that newly developed strength and get the neurological component in place, a very significant amount of that strength will be applied to the new movement but it won't be a perfect transfer.

    So the core question is, will lifting to get stronger improve punching power? My position is that yes it will, but with some limitations and relatively quick diminishing returns. However, lifting to get stronger will more importantly build a good base for other attributes and prevent injury, thus making it beneficial to fighters when programmed correctly and not taken to an extreme.
     
    #127
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  8. Sano Brown Belt

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    Hit the nail on the head right there I think. That's how I see it too.

    Aaand we're back to being in complete agreement, again haha!
     
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  9. Noodles03 Orange Belt

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    There are benefits to of having strength for boxing, however throwing a punch is more of a ballistic movement. So when throwing a punch, you don't tense up your arm till the very end when you connect to your target. Also, most of the power comes from putting your weight behind your punch.
     
    #129
  10. Noodles03 Orange Belt

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    Yup.
     
    #130
  11. a guy Black Belt

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    HOW do you put your weight behind the punch? What is it that moves your weight? It's the contraction of your leg muscles. The ability to contract those muscles with more force translates directly to the ability to transfer your weight with more force.

    Two guys are executing the same technique. They weigh the same and have practiced the exact same punch the exact same amount of times. The only difference is that one is weak and one is strong. In this hypothetical scenario, which one hits harder?
     
    #131
  12. Noodles03 Orange Belt

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    To put more weight behind your punches, you drop your hips more. Sometimes you'll hear coaches yelling at their students to sit down more on their punch.

    Usually the one that is more relax would hit faster and harder simply because a punch is more of a ballistic movement. But assuming if everything is equal except for the strength level, the stronger guy would hit harder, but not by much.
     
    #132
  13. a guy Black Belt

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    Jesus Christ...it takes strength to move your weight. Your hips don't just drop. They don't just rotate, and your weight doesn't just move. Your muscles contract to make those things happen. Technique is essentially just the coordination of different contracting muscles. That's the only way you can physically move your body. More force behind those contractions equals more power. Technique AND strength.

    They're both the same amount of relaxed. Everything is the same but strength. So THANK YOU. The stronger guy hits harder. End of story. Strength contributes to punching technique. You say not by much, but that depends entirely on the strength gap.

    You keep saying it's a ballistic movement. No shit. Here's an interesting fact for you. Strong guys learn ballistic movements better than weak guys because they can apply their strength to it. This is true regardless of sport. A weak person won't throw a shotput, or a javelin, or a baseball, or whatever else as far as a strong person with equal technique.
     
    #133
  14. Noodles03 Orange Belt

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    Instead of putting in my rebuttal, let me ask you a question since I feel like we would just both be going back and forth. In the mma match between Mariusz Puzianowski vs Tim Sylvia, did Mariusz lost due to technique or strength? Surely Mariusz was stronger than Tim, but yet Mariusz ended up losing.
     
    #134
  15. a guy Black Belt

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    No, don't ignore my points. Nobody is arguing strength OR technique. The argument is about strength AND technique. A strong guy with no technique will usually lose to a weaker guy with technique. That's irrelevant to the thread, so lets get back to the issue.

    It's impossible to move without contracting your skeletal muscles. Technique simply means coordinating the right muscles to contract at the right time to perform a specific movement. The ability to contract with more force (strength) is obviously beneficial to ANY technique.

    A stronger fighter will always hit harder than a weaker fighter of equal weight and skill.

    An athlete with a strength base is, in fact, going to be better at any ballistic movement than a weak individual--better at plyometrics as well.

    These are all facts. You can try to ignore them, deflect from them and downplay them, but they remain objectively true. No coach in the world would argue against training both strength and technique to improve power (of course speed and RFD as well), unless the individual has already hit a point of diminishing returns from strength training.
     
    #135
  16. Noodles03 Orange Belt

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    LoL, as long you don't bite, I'm good to continue. :D

    I agree with that and for example with marathon runners with heavy squatting, studies have shown that their running times decreased due to the increase of leg strength. I also agree with the notion that strength training combine with explosive or ballistic training will have an advantage over some one who merely just have just ballistic or explosive training.

    Now this is where things get a bit tricky simply because on paper, you'll think this would make sense, but it doesn't. Take Thomas Hearns for example, he had a very thin build but yet he had devastating knockout power.

    I've sparred against some strong folks, but their punches was never as hard against someone who were descent lifters. Now, had weight lifting help me in boxing, of course. Had it made me hard hitting puncher, unfortunately no. It was mostly due to hitting the heavy bag and working with my technique.

    LoL, now please go easy on me, I'm sensitive.
     
    #136
  17. rmongler Brown Belt

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    In the interests of throwing some more gasoline onto the fire, there have been some interesting experiments done recently (that i believe have even been posted elsewhere round here) about the 'commensurability' of endurance sports, and one of the interesting findings was when they did things like having a marathon runner go on a long distance bicycle, they didn't do much better than the control group.

    It just goes to show that efficient movement depends a lot on having efficient movement engrams encoded. The brain is a great miser; it will not devote resources to anything if it is not expressly and repeatedly demanded to do so. People 'uninitiated' to a certain mode of endeavor will have 'low resolution' movement engrams. Like a highly pixelated image, their movements will also be blocky and jerky, lacking in fine tune or intermediation. More, their ability to sense differences in movement will also be low resolution (something even more essential when one is on the grappling mats).

    When one lifts heavy, be it another body, or your own body as the case may be, it is not merely ones muscles and joints that are the limiting factor, but the CNS itself being trained to instantiate greater recruitment. That is where 'noob gains' come from after all.
     
    #137
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  18. a guy Black Belt

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    That's the thing, technique will always be more important than strength, but strength will still contribute. Anyway, the most important point is that strength training+explosvie training is more effective than either on their own, and when both are combined with technique that's when real improvements in power happen.

    So let's say you take a new boxer. This guy has no athletic background but isn't obese or disabled in any way. Just your average skinny-fat guy. If you wanted to maximize his punching power, you'd start him training technique immediately. Teaching him proper stance, weight shifting, how to make a fist, hip rotation, the real basics. You'd also have him lifting heavy/doing heavy resistance training of some kind (obviously giving him time to adjust to training volume). You'd give him a nice strength base, then start adding in more complex and explosive exercises. Some unilateral work, ballistics and plyometrics, all that good stuff. You'd keep the technical training going, moving him from shadowboxing to hitting the heavy bag, getting his accuracy and speed up through padwork and giving him partner drills to develop control of distance and start preparing for sparring. Once you got him really strong and explosive you'd dial back the hard S&C work and focus on more sport specific movements and speed work (keeping some general maintenance going) while getting into hard sparring and really focusing on the technical aspects. He'd probably take a fight at the end of this phase, after which he'd take a little time to deload before hopping back into GPP and repeating the cycle, though with adjustments made to address his individual needs at this time. Rinse and repeat. Now this is a very simplified version and is ignoring other attributes like cardio. You'd have to fit more into the program, but that's a general idea of what it would look like.

    Take a guy like Hearns, he may have been skinny but that doesn't mean he wasn't strong. Also, as I've said, technique is still way more important than strength. You can learn to be a knockout hitter (assuming good genetics) without heavy resistance training, but not without technique. Strength training supplements technique. That's the entire point of GPP overall, whether we're talking about strength, endurance, cardio or something else.

    The key point here is that to optimize training, the boxer should be doing both technique training and strength training. Both sport specific work, and general preparedness work.
     
    #138
  19. a guy Black Belt

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    Link to the study?
     
    #139
  20. rmongler Brown Belt

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    I've been looking for it myself just in case i might have been misremembering (and hoping perhaps the guy who posted it first notices); i stand by all the stuff afterwards anyways though.


    In other news: https://www.t-nation.com/training/dispelling-the-glute-myth

    tl;dr: hip thrusters and hill sprints(weighted)=athletixplosive buns of steel.
     
    #140
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
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