LIVE NOW: Rising Heavyweight prospect & LFA Heavyweight title challenger, Jared "The Mountain" Vanderaa stops by for a Q&A before he takes on Richard Odoms next Friday at LFA 15! Check it out: here!

Lifting weights and Boxing. | Page 6

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Crimson Glory, Mar 8, 2017.

  1. Ilk Yellow Belt

    Ilk
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    94
    Actually both work. If you do strenght work and then go shafow boxing sparring or heavy bag you are going to rely more on technique which is not too bad after all.

    My coach adviced me to do strenght work at the mornings before going to afternoon MMA classes as I am 10-20 kg heavier than my mates and I can easily walk trough them if I want to. This way I get tired and need to put emphasis on technique and eat few punches and kicks on the way.

    He was angry with my defensive style and that I barely get hit at spars and always play it safe putting way too much effort controlling my opponents with strenght.
     
    #101
    Jimmy H likes this.
  2. Jimmy H Brown Belt

    Jimmy H
    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    2,904
    Likes Received:
    1,876
    I just feel like I can't get my rythm on the bag when i lift first. my arms feel so heavy and I don't punch as well. I guess I'll try to work legs first, and see if that works. Thanks for the advice.
     
    #102
  3. strike thought Yellow Belt

    strike thought
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    207
    That does make sense. Technique aside, a reason why the limbs accelerate in an explosive manner is because of the fast twitch muscle fibers. Those muscle fibers contract 10 times faster than the type-1 muscle fibers. Having those well-conditioned fibers will mean you have a collective group of force-producing structures working together to facilitate explosive movement.
     
    #103
  4. MaxMMA Orange Belt

    MaxMMA
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    168
    You may not have read all of my posts in this thread. I specifically said in a few post that drilling the weight transfer over and over is the correct way to strengthen your muscles for punching... not weight lifting.
     
    #104
  5. panamaican Steel Belt

    panamaican
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    26,345
    Likes Received:
    9,913
    Actually you said that punching power is not derived from strength. Which is incorrect. It's derived from a combination of technique AND strength, not just one or the other.

    You asked in what way does being able to lift weights add in weight transfer. Being able to lift weights increases the strength of the muscles used in the weight transfer. Thus adding strength to the weight transfer itself. Increasing it's power.

    Where you are incorrect is that you are drawing a false delineation between strength gained from weight lifting and strength gained from just drilling the technique. Your body does not see it this way. Your body does not care. Your body only cares about time under stress.

    Weight lifting allows you to put your body under more stress, more often than drilling does. Now, if you're training 7 days a week several hours a day then, fine, you can probably duplicate some of the stress load. But if you're only training 2-3 days a week for 1-2 hours per session then you're not going to be able to do enough reps to build significant strength just by doing the drills (unless you're badly out of shape to begin with).
     
    #105
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    a guy likes this.
  6. MaxMMA Orange Belt

    MaxMMA
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    168
    The power of a punch, or the strength of a punch, is derived from the weigh transfer aka the technique. Your punching power is determined by how effectively and how efficiently you can manipulate your body weight through this weight transfer. Can we agree on this?
     
    #106
    Noodles03 likes this.
  7. panamaican Steel Belt

    panamaican
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    26,345
    Likes Received:
    9,913
    No, we cannot.

    You consistently insist on arguing that muscular strength is irrelevant. The power/strength of a punch is derived from the effective application of your muscular strength into a striking technique. Or put another way, how do you execute a technique with the application of muscular strength?

    Your punching power is determined by a combination of strength and technique. They work in tandem. A strong fighter with average technique can hit as hard as a weak fighter with great technique. Both will hit harder than a weak fighter with average technique and neither will hit as hard as a strong fighter with great technique.


    A pretty good paper on the benefits of Strength and conditioning training on MT.
    https://www.lbs.co.il/data/attachme...nd_Conditioning_for_Muay_Thai_Athletes.12.pdf

    Another good article:
    He touches on muscular strength, speed, endurance.
     
    #107
  8. MaxMMA Orange Belt

    MaxMMA
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    168
    No where in this thread have I argued that muscular strength is irrelevant. What I'm arguing is that building muscular strength through weight lifting does not aid in increasing punching power like so many people think.

    The correct method of developing muscular strength for punching, is to punch. Over and over and over and over.

    You can develop punching power through boxing training= Proven fact

    Weight lifting aids in increasing punching power when trained alongside boxing= Pure speculation.
     
    #108
  9. panamaican Steel Belt

    panamaican
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    26,345
    Likes Received:
    9,913
    I'm sorry but that has no physiological underpinning.

    Are you suggesting that muscles developed via weight lifting operate differently from muscles developed via punching? And what is the scientific basis for that statement.

    How does strengthening your glutes via punching cause your glutes to function differently from strengthening them via a squat? That's a serious question - how do the different strengthening methods cause the muscular contraction to be different?
     
    #109
  10. MaxMMA Orange Belt

    MaxMMA
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    168
    That's what I've been saying this whole time.

    Obviously muscles that are developed via weights operate differently that muscles developed punching otherwise my ass would look the same being conditioned via punching as it would via hitting the squat rack.

    When you preform a squat, you are standing stationary, flat on your feet and you engage your muscles to press your ass away from the floor.

    When you throw a punch, you transfer you body weight from the ball of your foot, up through your legs, glutes, hips, trunk, through your arm and out of the end of your fist.

    In what way is conditioning your muscles to slowly press your ass up away from the floor, aiding in suddenly and quickly transferring your body weight from your foot to your fist?

    It's 2 completely separate movements, and you could argue that conditioning your body to lift weights and punch, is counter productive to just conditioning your body to preform 1 function. I don't actually believe that, I believe you are conditioning your muscles to preform 2 different tasks. Where it could hurt a fighter, is if he is spending time lifting weights thinking it is going to help improve his execution of various techniques, when drilling the techniques themselves are the proven method of developing execution of the technique.

    In case you missed it, here is the man himself explaining it:

     
    #110
  11. Noodles03 Orange Belt

    Noodles03
    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    428
    Likes Received:
    186
    Location:
    Southern California
    Punching power is determined mostly by technique and your own body weight.
     
    #111
  12. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,660
    Likes Received:
    738
    This is getting ridiculous. Strength is a major factor in punching power because it's a major factor in power as an athletic attribute (power=force times velocity). Technique is necessary to coordinate that strength, but acting like strength doesn't improve technique or that strength can't be translated into different movements is straight denial of reality.

    Technique is always going to be the most important thing. But a strong fighter with good technique will always, in every single case hit harder than a weak fighter with the same technique at the same weight. That simple fact is getting ignored, downplayed and outright denied in this thread to an extent that I struggle to understand.

    Strength is an incredibly important physical attribute. Trained correctly it also improves balance, endurance, speed and power--and lays the foundation for future training of those attributes to be both safer and more effective.

    I've said this 100x but every single professional sport does general preparation work. Strength is one of the core attributes of any elite athlete. It isn't enough on its own, and for sports diminishing returns absolutely set in. Rate of force development becomes more important than maximal force, but strength lays the foundation for that. This isn't my opinion. These are the conclusions thousands of professional researchers and coaches across the world have developed after decades of work.

    Technique AND strength. Not one or the other.
     
    #112
    panamaican likes this.
  13. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2011
    Messages:
    3,054
    Likes Received:
    4,686
    Location:
    Denmark
    He's actually not entirely off base on this one. Let's take the glutes as an example. The glutes are three muscles: The maximus, which extends and externally rotate the hip, the medius, which abducts the hip and can actually either externally OR internally rotate the hip (it has two seperate fiber directions) and the minimus, which does a lot of the same that medius does, except it does rotate outwards. Squatting would work the maximus more, as both legs would be stable and less the medius. The medius however is working a lot more during unilateral work, or single leg work, a stance that resemble fighting more. Not to mention the many other hip muscles (there are many) which acts as synergists and antagonists very differently according to the stance and exercise you are doing.

    Another thing is, that strength gain and application is to an extent joint angle specific, even within the same muscle. This means that working at a certain ROM will make you stronger at that ROM and have less carryover to another one. It's not just "strength is strength" entirely. The reason for this is partly neurological, but also because the same muscle have different fiber directions and can experience regional hypertrophy. Meaning part of one muscle becomes stronger than the rest of it, the part that aid in a specific movement.

    This article: https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/perspectives/partial-squats/
    and especially this one: https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/perspectives/just-get-strong-is-wrong/
    goes into it in further depth.

    Same is true for the mantra that max strength increases speed and velocity, necessarily. Max strength can have an effect on the force velocity curve but honestly it's not very much. There are many other factors who contribute to a higher RFD.

    This one is pretty interesting in regards to how strength is somewhat velocity specific as well: https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/perspectives/lifting-weights-fast/

    I personally find compounds and other S&C training very helpful, and even important. Injury prevention, better motor control, the ability to target weaknesses, later on sport specific work and so forth. I also like doing squats as a form of GPP (General Physical Preparedness) and improving overall lower body mechanics and health. The other good part is that especially eccentric protocols improves the legs ability to absorb high impact forces and should lay the groundwork for plyos and ability to transfer power. How much a squat exactly transfers to punching power I think is very debateable, and honestly it depends.
     
    #113
    MaxMMA likes this.
  14. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,660
    Likes Received:
    738
    Hm, adapting S&C advice to the needs of the individual...what a concept.
     
    #114
  15. panamaican Steel Belt

    panamaican
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    26,345
    Likes Received:
    9,913
    I can't believe I'm reading this. Please direct me to an actual kinesthesiologist who says this.

    They are 2 separate movements but the muscle does not operate any differently in those 2 different movements. The muscles perform the same actions regardless of the task to which they are directed. But I can see that explaining anatomy and physiology and kinesthesiolgy to you doesn't matter.

    So source it.
     
    #115
  16. MaxMMA Orange Belt

    MaxMMA
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    168
    No one is denying that strength is an important attribute in fighting, no where in this thread does anyone try to claim that it is not important for a fighter to be strong.

    The argument is whether or not building strength via weightlifting brings anything to the table as it pertains to fighting.
     
    #116
  17. MaxMMA Orange Belt

    MaxMMA
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    168
    You don't engage your muscles the same way in weight lifting as you do in martial arts, not sure why this is so hard to understand?
     
    #117
  18. Ilk Yellow Belt

    Ilk
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    94
    Haha it is not a rocket science. I am stronger and smarter than my mates. Thus when I jab I may leave my hand to push. When I cross I often hug or run away. If I hug or push I create opportunities to defend with my strenght not with technique. And as I am way heavier I control the clinch or push to a safe distance where I can not get hit.

    However I am not working on my technique and create bad habbits. I am not going to control people at my weight and strenght.

    I talked to my coach about that and he asked me if I lift and asked me about my routine. He was happy with it and adviced to lift the mornings so I am tired for the MMA work out and work on my technique.
     
    #118
  19. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,660
    Likes Received:
    738
    Strength won't translate perfectly into different movements, but it will still translate with technique. You explained very well the reasons why it won't be 100%, but it also won't be 0. No, squatting doesn't perfectly imitate punching technique. However, the leg and core strength it develops make punching technique more effective because those muscles will still be able to produce more force and produce it more quickly--especially once they're coordinated to perform that technique. That isn't to say strength alone is enough. I'd argue that strength is just a good base, and I'd also argue that it becomes detrimental to focus on relatively quickly. Attributes like RFD, power, balance, etc. will be much more important than strength at the elite level and require different methods to train optimally. That's a big part of the reason guys like Curson aren't in favor of heavy lifting for elite athletes, but it needs to be considered that the guys he's working with already have a strength base. We should be aware of the limitations and diminishing returns of strength training on punching power, but that doesn't mean we should disregard the benefits either.

    I really think it comes down to targeting the needs of the individual. If you're weak but have good technique, general strength work will make you hit harder. If you're strong and have bad technique, lifting more won't make much of a difference but improving technique will make a huge difference. If you're strong and have good technique, you'll benefit from more speed and RFD.
     
    #119
  20. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,660
    Likes Received:
    738
    Strength built via weightlifting (or any other method of resistance) not only increases maximal force production, it increases endurance, power, balance and other related attributes to some extent. More importantly, it sets a foundation for future training of those attributes to be safer and more effective. This is why every single professional sport in the world makes use of GPP, yet you're trying to argue that only SPP is necessary. Strength will never come before technique work, but strong muscles performing technique are always better than weak muscles performing the same technique.
     
    #120

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "fd5733925866a04e50edd70f38dfaa35"
monitoring_string = "603ac9fff68f23709f2a42bf5e29272b"