Lifting weights and Boxing. | Page 5

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Crimson Glory, Mar 8, 2017.

  1. MaxMMA Blue Belt

    MaxMMA
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    The ability to exert maximal force into what? A lift? a sprint? A punch? The method of exerting maximal force into each of those separate activities is different for each one.

    Your example is even more idiotic than mine.
    Fighter A is weak and can only exert 800N of force with his legs... doing what the fuck exactly? Squats? box jumps? cumming?

    Being able to exert 800n of force doing a squat has jack shit to do with how much force you can exert into a punch.
    The fighter isn't learning how to take the technique he uses to generate the force of a squat to generate that same force into the punch. No, just no. He uses the technique of punching to generate the force of the punch.
    You don't exert 800n of force doing a squat, then store that power in your calves and quads to later use to exert that force in an entirely different sequence of movements. This is bro science at its finest.

    The technique of the punch is what generates power. Conditioning, building and strengthening your muscles through repetitive drilling of the techniques is what gives your muscles the strength and speed at which to generate maximum force through said technique.
     
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  2. Noodles03 Blue Belt

    Noodles03
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    What's your view on plyometric exercises for combat sports such as throwing or slaming med balls onto the floor or clapping push up?
     
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  3. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
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    It's technique AND strength. Coordination AND maximal force. You don't use different muscles to lift than to punch, you just use them in different movement patterns. Strong muscles developed while lifting will translate to strong muscles while punching, but those muscles need to be coordinated through technique. It's both. Trying to argue otherwise is denying reality.

    You're so obsessed with specificity but you don't understand that strength can be applied in different movement sequences. Actually, it isn't even that you don't understand, it's that you believe the opposite. That's simply denial of reality. Strength doesn't just disappear because the muscles aren't contracting in the exact same order. Those muscles still have the ability to contract with that much force, and when those forceful contractions are coordinated through technique you get power. If you show two people the same punch, but one has the strength to contract their muscles to produce more force, that person will hit harder. I have no idea how you think you can argue with that.

    Every sport, coach and professional athlete in the world uses GPP. You can't argue with that point so you ignore it in every one of my posts, or try to brush it under the rug with examples of shitty S&C. It's not working. You're trying to claim you know more than the entire athletic community. It's laughable. Everyone else isn't wrong man. General training is needed to supplement specific training for optimal results. There's no controversy about that statement.
     
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  4. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
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    Not only does it make you slow and stiff, apparently your muscles also forget how to be strong as soon as they have to contract in a different movement. Strong core and legs? Sorry buddy, only in lifting movements. They won't help you punch even once you learn technique that's bro science.

    Seriously that's what I've been arguing with.
     
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  5. MaxMMA Blue Belt

    MaxMMA
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    There was a time when I was a huge proponent of body weight and plyometric routines for combat sports. I would do hundreds of pushups, one armed pushups, clapping, off set push ups, squats/jumping squats/jumping lunges/ box jumps/ crunches/ tire flips tire drills, rings. Basically all of it.
    Now I just find it all to be unnecessary. When I box, my boxing coach has certain plyometric exercises for me to do, seated ab twists, shadow boxing with weights etc, same with karate, we'll practice kicking out of the lunge position instead of the standing position, foot work drills around ladders, cones and hurdles etc. I'm already doing sport specific plyometrics in practice, I'm just finding that personally an extra stand alone S&C routine is just not worth the time and physical expenditure.
     
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  6. MaxMMA Blue Belt

    MaxMMA
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    No where anywhere has that ever been proven true.

    Since you want to blab on about facts here's some for you:
    You can develop punching power/ability through repetitive boxing drills and technique=Fact

    You can supplement that punching power/ability by lifting weights=pure speculation.

    End of story.

    A guy that lifted weights for 10 years isn't going to come into a boxing gym and automatically be able to hit harder than a guy that comes into a boxing gym and hasn't lifted weights. If you had any significant martial arts experience you would understand this. But you don't, so you like to believe that you might be able to beat up an amateur flyweight because you can hoist a mountain of iron up over chest.

    That is not how punching power, development and most importantly technique works. It's about technical proficiency, and its unproven that weight lifting aids in this proficiency.

    Just because a lot of people do it, doesn't make it fact, or true, or right.
     
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  7. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
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    Technical proficiency is part of the picture. So is strength. If technique is equal, strength will make the difference in power. In no way is that unproven. A strong guy will always hit harder than a weaker guy with equal technique. Muscles don't lose their ability to contract just because they have to contract in a different movement: all they lose is coordination until technical drilling fixes that.

    It's not that a lot of people do it. It's that people who study this for a living, across all sports and all cultures all over the world, who have scientific and clinical studies with understandings of anatomy, kinesiology and generally exercise science do it. People who are infinitely more educated than you or I. You still don't even know how strength works yet you're trying to hand wave away the findings of every professional sport.

    General preparation is important. That's a damn fact and trying to argue it shows your ignorance.
     
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  8. AndyMaBobs Green Belt

    AndyMaBobs
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    I can't really think of any professional fighters that don't use weights and compete at the highest levels, I'm sure there are some but they're a rarity.
     
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  9. JSnake Green Belt

    JSnake
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    Strength training is not equatable to weight training, mind you. Even light weights can cause injury if you accidentally drop them on your toe or something. Strength is a very individual thing, for some people it comes naturally, and others have to work for it. If your body's constitution is already strong or if you've built a strong foundation through time, then sport-specific training may be sufficient to perform at a high level. As far as muscle training goes, Maxwell points out that in his experience, doing exercises that would simply strengthen/build up the muscle doesn't necessarily translate into performance in sport, there are different mechanisms involved.

    When looking at Jon Jones for example, when he started focusing on weight lifting before his fight with St.Preux, his physique looked the best it ever has leading up to it, but when it actually came to fight night, he looked the worst he's ever been from a fighting standpoint. Now could the muscle training have been responsible for that? Possibly. Greg Jackson seemed to think so.
     
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  10. rmongler Brown Belt

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    I think that was more a simple case of ring rust and them latching on to an obvious scape-goat.
     
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  11. a guy Black Belt

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    Of course. I've never equated strength work to lifting. I've specifically said the modality can vary. Exercises to build strength DO translate to all sports, but if you're already strong diminishing returns need to be considered and sport specific work is going to be a lot more necessary to keep improving.

    He was coming off a long layoff and OSP was a late replacement. Also I would never recommend heavy lifting during a camp. That's not how GPP should work.
     
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  12. panamaican Forum Moderator

    panamaican
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    That's just incorrect.

    All power is derived from strength applied in a specific fashion. The speed at which you transfer weight is derived from strength. The strength of your legs. The strength of the muscles in your core.

    Maybe you're confusing strength with size or equating slow twitch and fast twitch?

    Your biggest error seems to be that you don't think practicing the weight transfer over and over again increases strength. It does. Putting the muscle under stress (regardless of how) over and over again builds strength. That is how increasing muscle strength works. How the human body works.

    Your body does not care if the stress comes from push ups, bench press or 200 reps of pushing your arm in front of you. It responds to the stress, not the method.
     
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  13. panamaican Forum Moderator

    panamaican
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    They are 2 different things. Muscular endurance and muscular strength.

    Muscular strength is the ability to exert a certain amount of force over a short period of time. Muscular endurance is the ability to do something over and over again.

    They are not the same thing, they are not trained the same way. It makes no sense to run 25 miles if you're going to run slowly. It makes no sense to be able to sprint at top speed for only 5 feet. You have to train both. Strength training increases the force you can apply. Endurance training increases how often you can apply it.

    To make it fight specific: Training strength means you punch harder. Training endurance means you can punch more often. Technique training should be the bridge between the two. Strength training to increase force. Loads of technique training to improve how and how often you can apply that strength.
     
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  14. Noodles03 Blue Belt

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    Hopefully I'm not taking your quote out of context and I apologize if did. Now from a weight lifting point of view, it's true that power is derived from strength. However in boxing, it's a bit different since power in generated by dropping the hips and using the weight of your body behind the punch is more effective.

    For the OP, I just believe strength training should be just a tool to help you and you should focus more on technique, timing, accuracy, and learning to relax in ring is more important.

    And I forgot to mention, I survive 2 months of Cross Fit without getting any injuries. :D
     
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  15. panamaican Forum Moderator

    panamaican
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    You're discussing technique. Which is how strength is applied. But the technique is the same whether you have significant strength or none. The difference becomes how much strength that technique is bringing to bear. @a guy said it right much earlier - a strong person applying technique does more damage than a weak person applying the same technique.

    Great technique is about maximizing your strength, not making it irrelevant. If strength didn't matter, people wouldn't train it but every sport, including the combat sports, train strength. They don't all train it by going to the weight room and banging out reps but they do all train it.

    Even the heavy bag is a form of strength training. It is resistance training in a very sport specific way, but it's still resistance training. And resistance training builds strength.

    And congratulations on surviving Crossfit, lol.
     
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  16. Noodles03 Blue Belt

    Noodles03
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    Thank you. :)

    I completely agree on the idea of combining technique with strength, especially with sports where you are required to over come resistance such as wrestling, football, or strong man competition. However with boxing, it's so much different simply because throwing a punch is more of a ballistic movement. I would say that explosive strength would be more beneficial than max strength training and based from my own experience, I felt I received more benefits from doing ballistic exercises such as the kettle bell swings.
     
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  17. panamaican Forum Moderator

    panamaican
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    But training explosive strength is still training strength.

    Maybe that's where the disconnect arises in these type of conversations. Strength training isn't just about training to max out your 1-rep max. In the fighting context, there has to be a balance between application and maximum strength. And that balance is in the maximum strength that you can properly apply in a fighting context.

    Any change to your body means changes to how you fight, how quick/slow you respond, what you're capable of doing. Where max strength training probably gets a bad rap is that it makes changes to your body faster than your training makes adaptations to your ability to apply it.

    A great example is what's happening with a basketball player, Brandon Ingram. He's extremely thin and to be effective in his sport, he's going to need to bulk up and get stronger. The problem is that forcing significant change in the pursuit of strength increases the risk of injury since he's learned to play basketball at his very thin weight. Too much weight (and strength) too soon means his body will be underprepared to apply it in the sport context. So, the Lakers are taking a slow approach with his strength gains. Letting the strength develop more naturally so his body adapts to the gains more organically. The hope is to avoid injury and keep his basketball game improving in line with his strength.

    Fighting is no different. You want to constantly add strength. But you want to add it while constantly training to apply it.
     
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  18. Noodles03 Blue Belt

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    #98
  19. panamaican Forum Moderator

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    #99
  20. Jimmy Jazz Brown Belt

    Jimmy Jazz
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    I see in the wrestling video they do cardio before weights. Is this ok to do, because I've heard the opposite. I prefer to hit the heavy bag before I lift because I punch like shit after lifting.
     
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