1. LIVE NOW: Chat with UFC/WEC Bantamweight & UK legend, Brad "One Punch" Pickett here!

Lifting weights and Boxing. | Page 4

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Crimson Glory, Mar 8, 2017.

  1. Noodles03 Orange Belt

    Noodles03
    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    366
    Likes Received:
    142
    Location:
    Southern California
    Crimson, if you ever have the chance, learn to do the kettle bell or dumbbell swing. The exercise really helped me to use more of hips when punching.

    When it comes to training, make sure that your having fun and don't over do it with the conditioning which might lead to injuries.
     
    #61
    Crimson Glory likes this.
  2. Jimmy H Purple Belt

    Jimmy H
    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    2,196
    Likes Received:
    1,419
    did you do boxing or muay thai? I did muay thai and it really made my body feel more glued together. Granted I wasnt doing anything too heavy. 250 x10 for dead lift and 200 x 10 for bench.
     
    #62
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  3. Reyesnuthugr belt

    Reyesnuthugr
    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    8,143
    Likes Received:
    985
    Location:
    West Coast / Portland
    There are lots of trainers that disagree with lifting weights. Joe Frasier was one of them, he preferred body weight exercises like dips and pushups (says so in his book). A lot of the old school, more technical trainers recommend against weights but they wont stop someone from lifting if they really want to. I've never heard any say that lifting is essential to striking, not a single one, only the direct opposite stance, or vague ambivalence.
     
    #63
    MaxMMA likes this.
  4. Crimson Glory TMMAC

    Crimson Glory
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Messages:
    7,063
    Likes Received:
    2,964
    Thanks for the tip my man.

    I'm having tons of fun, I'm usually leaving class feeling like I got my ass kicked(not because of sparring, just mit and bag work along with the calisthenics they get you to do), but that's only a good thing.

    Working on combinations, head movement and footwork is a good time.
     
    #64
    Noodles03 likes this.
  5. PivotPunch Red Belt

    PivotPunch
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2012
    Messages:
    9,199
    Likes Received:
    1,610
    Pretty much all olschool boxers were opposed to striking. But guys like Foreman, Rocky Marciano and Archie Moore did do resistance training not with barbells but with stones, pulling cars and whatever which in the end is basically the same.

    If you go back even further Jack Dempsey mentions in his book that during his career there were trainers who even said that doibng bodyweight stuff like pushups yeah fucking pushups would make you bulky and stiff.

    There ar eproponents however. Basically ever boxer who does use weights. Most famously Evander Holyfield
     
    #65
    Reyesnuthugr likes this.
  6. MaxMMA White Belt

    MaxMMA
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    67
    I never said strong muscles don't make technique more effective, in fact I said quite the opposite. What you fail to understand, is that strengthening your muscles to lift weights, is completely different than strengthening your muscles to throw punches, execute takedowns, subs, sweeps etc.

    Just because your muscles are conditioned and strengthened to preform one task, doesn't mean they are going to be strong and conditioned to preform another task and I've already explained from personal experience how heavy and long term weight lifting can actually undermine what you are trying to accomplish in various martial arts settings. ESPECIALLY for people who are just starting out and will need to put in years of training to effectively understand and apply the body mechanics *aka techniques of striking and grappling.

    Why is it that if you go to 10 different boxing gyms, jiujitsu gyms, karate schools etc, they all have you do the same shit? Because they all know what drills, routines, and techniques work to accomplish what they are trying to do in their particular arena.

    Now go to 10 different S&C facilities/coaches, tell them you're a professional MMA fighter looking for a S&C program to complement your training and you'll get 10 different S&C routines. I've been through no less than 25 Mixed Martial Arts training camps and through all those camps there's always someone that brings their new S&C guy or routine into the picture, and every time these clowns have us doing something different, and I'm just not buying that shit anymore.
     
    #66
    Noodles03 likes this.
  7. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,495
    Likes Received:
    522
    That's not what strength is. Strong muscles are strong, period. They might not be coordinated, but strength translates to different activities just like balance, cardio and speed do. It's hard to argue when you prove over and over you don't know what strength even is. Again, take a strong guy and a weak guy of the same weight with the same technique, the strong guy will always hit harder and it's impossible to argue otherwise unless you literally don't understand the definition of strength.

    What you also fail to understand is that S&C needs to be adapted for the individual to address individual weaknesses. That's what periodization and programming are about. Your anecdotal experience doesn't really mean shit, and neither does mine, when every single sport on the planet recognizes the value of S&C. There are a lot of bull shitters running the S&C for low level mma guys, I'll give you that, but every single sport in the world isn't wrong. I'd love to see you explain why you, some random guy on sherdog, know more than all the professional athletes and coaches in the world.
     
    #67
    panamaican likes this.
  8. MaxMMA White Belt

    MaxMMA
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    67
    Strong muscles aren't strong period, you are completely clueless. If you're a serious lifter and squat a bunch of weight, your legs are strong regardless of activity according to you, so go run 25 miles and tell me how far those "strong legs" will carry you. Your legs are strong from weight lifting right? So they should be conditioned to carry you the full 25 miles right?

    Again you're putting words in my mouth, I never said S&C is useless for all sports, and if you actually read my posts, you would know that I said, I see the benefit of S&C in other sports.

    Again in your post you try to downplay my personal experience by saying there are a lot of bullshitters for low level mma guys. Well im here to tell you I've been involved in training camps for amateur fighters, and I've been involved in training camps for UFC fighters and the S&C shtick has remained the same over all these years.

    Hit these tires, jump over these obstacles, lift these light weights dozens of times, lift these heavy weights a few times, pull this sled, climb this thing. Do it in this order, do it in that order. They always have you doing different shit, because they don't know jack about fighting and they just like to shoot from the hip and guess what will work to condition someone for a fight when that person is being conditioned for the fight already by training in various martial arts forms.

    I never said I knew more than professional athletes and coaches, although I am one, and at least one professional, Georges St. Pierre, has the same view of S&C as I do.
     
    #68
  9. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,495
    Likes Received:
    522
    Did you seriously just try to call running 25 miles strength? Man, you literally don't know what strength is.

    Just because you don't believe in the S&C you were doing doesn't mean there isn't value to it. MMA is just a sport like any other. Every sport uses GPP for general attributes, then SPP for sport specific skills. Thats what's proven to be the most effective way to condition the human body regardless of sport. You take the best training methods to develop the necessary attributes for your sport. Lifting is just one tool to accomplish that,

    But again, you literally don't know what the word strength means. You have no idea about programming or periodization.

    A strong guy and a weak guy with the same technique will not have the same power. That's an indisputable fact.
     
    #69
    panamaican likes this.
  10. MaxMMA White Belt

    MaxMMA
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    67
    Just because you say something is a fact doesn't make it so.

    The only person that doesn't understand what strength is, is you. You think being strong means being able to lift weights. You don't think it takes leg strength to run 25 miles straight? You're an idiot.

    The best training methods to develop the necessary attributes to succeed in an MMA fight are the training methods laid out in Jiujitsu, boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, etc. What don't you meatheads understand about this?

    My muscles are already strengthened and conditioned for these activities by the drilling, and conditioning routines used by the coaches in these various programs. I don't need to go to an S&C clown that's going to have me doing god knows what.

    I had a guy one time trying to make me do these modified cable curls, basically a motion on cables that he thought mimicked an uppercut, because he, like you, thought that punching power came from muscles strengthened and conditioned by resistance training. Do you need me to provide other examples of the S&C buffoonery I've experienced or are you starting to get the picture?
     
    #70
  11. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,495
    Likes Received:
    522
    Distance running isn't strength it's endurance and aerobic cardio. Strength is the ability to exert maximum force. How do you not know that?

    You build strength, then coordinate those strong muscles through technique. Punching power comes from both, it's insane to argue otherwise unless you don't know what strength is--which you keep demonstrating. You can keep describing technique to me all you want. I know that. I know how to throw a punch. What you don't know is that being strong and knowing how to throw a punch is always better than being weak and knowing how to throw a punch.

    BTW, working with shitty S&C coaches doesn't discredit good ones. It just means you worked with shitty ones. Your experience doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme of things, and neither does mine. Not when compared to professional athletes in every fucking sport.

    I'll say it again. You don't know more than all the professional athletes and coaches in the world. You're in denial of reality.
     
    #71
  12. Noodles03 Orange Belt

    Noodles03
    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    366
    Likes Received:
    142
    Location:
    Southern California
    I mainly do boxing, although I have done very little muay thai which I really enjoyed.
     
    #72
  13. Noodles03 Orange Belt

    Noodles03
    Joined:
    May 16, 2013
    Messages:
    366
    Likes Received:
    142
    Location:
    Southern California
    Far as this debate goes, I say experiment with the various strength exercise and see if it helps you or not.

    Also, I'm selling my Airdyne bike and Title Double Trouble heavy bag and stand. If anyone is interested, please pm. :)
     
    #73
  14. JSnake Blue Belt

    JSnake
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    757
    There are S&C coaches/trainers out there that would argue the same thing MaxMMA is saying, such as Steve Maxwell or Nick Curson. Just because something is mainstream does not make it grounded in absolute fact, it is a subject that is still up for debate even among professionals.

     
    #74
    MaxMMA likes this.
  15. MaxMMA White Belt

    MaxMMA
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    67
    Jesus, how many times are we going to go around this bush?
    Distance running is aerobic cardio and endurance... MUSCULAR endurance... Muscular Strength, which is a blanket term.
    You say you can strengthen your muscles by lifting weights, which in turn will make your technique faster and more powerful, when the truth is, it is proper technique and drilling that produces the speed and power of martial arts techniques.

    Once again.
    Fighter A: weights 170, has developed punching power of 30psi through drilling and technique.
    Fighter B: weighs 170, has developed punching power of 30 psi through identical drilling and technique as fighter A. Fighter B has also conditioned and shaped his muscles to be able to squat 300lbs, bench 250lbs, and deadlift 400lbs

    They both weigh the same, and both have the same technique so they both have the same punching power. Lifting weights doesn't factor into this equation at all.

    Are you saying that weights do factor in and that fighter B reached a punching power of 30 psi through technique and lifting weights? In that case Fighter B's technique is garbage and will be punching at a significantly slower speed than fighter A who developed his 30 psi punching power through technique alone.
    Or are you saying that there's no way fighter A could have equal punching power to fighter B because he doesn't lift weights? Remember you said they both weigh the same and have equal technique which means they will be transferring their weight through the same process and at the same speed if their technique is indeed equal.

    Doesn't matter anyway, weight lifting doesn't effect punching power the way you think it does. It only factors in if weight lifting was used to gain more body weight to transfer through the mechanics of the punch.

    You believe that building, conditioning, and strengthening your musculature through weight lifting will somehow make you punch faster and harder, but that's just bro science and not proven anywhere.

    Building, conditioning, and strengthening your musculature through punching is the only PROVEN method to allow you to punch faster and harder<---- FACT, and the only actual fact that has been laid out in our 15 post discussion.
     
    #75
  16. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,495
    Likes Received:
    522
    What he says about a minute and a half in is EXACTLY what I'm saying. You get sport specific attributes by doing the sport, but there should also be a general strength training regimen. That's what I've been saying this entire time. Curson mostly argued against Olympic lifts and others because of the danger and risk of injury. He never says strength isn't a valuable general attribute. He talks about it again in the last minute.

    There's general preparation work and there's specific preparation work. Elite athletes need both, and nobody who knows what they're talking about disagrees with that.
     
    #76
  17. a guy Black Belt

    a guy
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,495
    Likes Received:
    522
    Muscular endurance is not the same as muscular strength. Though muscular strength actually increases muscular endurance, which is another reason why it's valuable. Strength is not a blanket term. I defined it for you. It's the ability to exert maximal force. The truth is that it's both. Strengthen your muscles and drill your technique. That makes you hit harder than someone who just gets strong or who just practices technique. It's not a hard concept. I don't know why you fail to grasp it.

    Your example is idiotic because you're setting the punching power of both guys as equal then saying "See! They have to be equal unless one guy's technique is worse!". No shit. You argued that both guys have the same power because you said they do. The way things actually work in real life is the guy who is stronger hits harder if technique is the same. Technique doesn't mean speed. It means both guys have practiced the same movement and are equally coordinated to perform it. The one with stronger muscles will be able to exert more force, and exert that force more quickly, while performing the exact same movement pattern. That makes him hit harder. Those muscles don't even have to be developed through lifting. It can be bodyweight or whatever else. The modality can vary, but strong muscles are strong. All it takes for them to be strong in a pattern they aren't used to is practice, at which point all that strength will be applied and the technique will be performed with more force that is generated at a higher rate.

    Let me fix your example for you. I'm gonna use numbers that are easy to work with. Fighter A is weak. He can only exert 800N of Force with his legs. Fighter B is strong. He can exert 1000N of force with his legs. Both have been taught the exact same technique and practiced it the exact same number of times, and are generally equal besides strength. Let's say with that technique, both fighters have learned to transfer 50% of the maximum force they can generate into a punch. That means A applies 400N, while B applies 500. B hits harder. And that's ignoring RFD gains from increasing strength, plus ignoring the core stability that would give an advantage in transferring force from the legs to the fist without losing power.

    Every sport in the world uses GPP work. Fighting is no different. It's an athletic activity like any other. No one who has a clue what they're talking about would argue that GPP doesn't transfer to sports, otherwise every sport in the world would stop using it. Yes, sport specific work is more important. That was never up for debate, but you'll get better results with GPP work to supplement. It's about technique AND strength, not one or the other. That's a fact, and any coach who knew a damn thing would laugh in your face if you tried saying otherwise.
     
    #77
  18. LEGS MAHONEY genetically modified man shark

    LEGS MAHONEY
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    7,439
    Likes Received:
    1,024
    Location:
    I NO TELL!!!!
    A. theres no scientific evidence that lifting weights makes you slower and stiffer in fact theres plenty of studies that suggest the opposite

    B. The only possible way you will become stiff and slow for combat arts via weight lifting is if you get Mr. Olympia size huge which isnt going to be possible with something as cardio intensive as boxing.



    I know ive talked about this topic before but god damn the fact this old wives tale still exists really results in rustle mania for me
     
    #78
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
    j123 and a guy like this.
  19. Ilk White Belt

    Ilk
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    33
    I ve met and trained with Steve Maxwell. He was a guest in our hotel when I was working in Istanbul, he invited me and the journalists from Men's Health in a workout at Topkapi Palace.

    Steve has wonderful work outs using your body and the environment. He is very creative and it was a fun morning. However keep in mind that this is what he sells. He has no property he travels the world and does lectures and instructions. He is a kettlebell master and he has programs only for that. His functional training has no sets or reps. He believes in a good diet and training every day with whatever you can get your hands on. Chin ups on a tree no probs. Deadlifts with a huge stone go for it.

    But he needs to sell his stuff keep that in mind
     
    #79
  20. Fadeless Black Belt

    Fadeless
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,512
    Likes Received:
    6,551
    [​IMG]
     
    #80
    j123 likes this.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "fd5733925866a04e50edd70f38dfaa35"
monitoring_string = "603ac9fff68f23709f2a42bf5e29272b"