Lifting weights and Boxing. | Page 3

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Crimson Glory, Mar 8, 2017.

  1. MaxMMA Orange Belt

    MaxMMA
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    I think the concept of running 25+ miles a week for a fight is outdated yes. Fighters already build their fight cardio by throwing 1000's of punches through bagwork, pads, shadowboxing, as well as condition their legs through jump roping(which very accurately mimics the muscle patterns of movement for stand up fighting).

    Jogging a marathon a week just seems unnecessary.
     
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  2. a guy Black Belt

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    The statement that strength from lifting can't be translated to strength in punching is untrue. Yes, punching will also develop those muscles to some extent, but it isn't nearly as efficient or effective. Lets say you took a weight lifter and an untrained person and had both start training boxing at the same time with the same coaching. Ignore all other variables. Do you really think the untrained person will be able to hit as hard as the weight lifter? Not only will the lifter hit harder from day 1, he'll have an easier time developing speed and be less likely to get injured. This doesn't just apply to punching. It applies to every single athletic movement in existence. Which brings me to the point you've ducked in every post:

    Why do professional athletes in every single sport pay S&C coaches?

    For the record I didn't respond to your question about my martial arts experience because you're probably looking to derail the thread into a pissing contest, but I have years of experience in boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ and MMA.
     
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  3. a guy Black Belt

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    It's all about establishing a goal then picking the most efficient and effective training methods to achieve that goal. If the goal is to build aerobic capacity, yes it can technically be done through regular training. However, it won't be as efficient or effective as traditional methods. This is the basis of programming and periodization. Certain adaptations require certain stimulus. Every sport has some concept of general preparation, sport specific preparation, competition, recovery. It's a little harder to program for combat sports because there isn't technically an off-season, but the basic principles still apply.
     
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  4. MaxMMA Orange Belt

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    And that's exactly where you're wrong and why I doubt you much experience in martial arts.
    The lifter may hit harder, or the non lifter may hit harder, it just depends on who has better technique.

    I've seen all manner of beginners walk through the doors of the various gyms ive trained at in the last 12 years. It doesn't matter if they've been lifting weights their whole life, or running marathons, or sitting on the couch. They are all the same... soft, weak, uncoordinated, and wind quickly.

    Most of the time the heavy lifters are very slow, stiff, inflexible, and far weaker than they appear because of all the years of having their bodies compacted under heavy weights.
     
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  5. MaxMMA Orange Belt

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    They pay for S&C coaches, because they are trying to gain every advantage they can over their competitors. The same reason why professional athletes in every sport suck down the latest and greatest supplements at gnc even though there was some other snake oil that was the latest and greatest last month.
    Just because everyone is doing something doesn't make it right. You heard what GSP said about S&C, and he's the best in the business. How about ol Cain, pumping that iron just to keep fucking himself up in training, over working? maybe. Idk.
     
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  6. a guy Black Belt

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    The lifter will hit harder every time. Neither will have better technique because they'll both have the exact same training. Though actually the lifter might pick technique up faster because he'll have a more stable core, better mobility and probably better balance.

    Nobody is good at the start, but people who are stronger hit harder than people who are weaker in every single case. Strength is a general physical attribute that gets applied through technique.

    You must have met some really shitty lifters. The lifters I've trained with who actually knew what they were doing came into boxing hitting harder than other beginners. They came into BJJ being harder to tap than other beginners. When they learn to apply their strength through technique the advantage gets even more significant.

    I've never met any coach who would prefer an untrained person came to them than someone who already had strong legs and core. Seriously, the fact that you argue otherwise is mind-boggling.
     
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  7. a guy Black Belt

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    You can't be serious. People go to fucking graduate school for this stuff. S&C coaches are not selling fucking snake oil. You can't actually think Cain, who's entire gym is notorious for brutalizing each other in sparring and who's lifting has been heavily criticized is proof that S&C is bad. A brief comment by GSP about lifting doesn't negate mountains of real world evidence in favor of it. Bas said the jab doesn't work in MMA. Sometimes very smart people are wrong too.

    Your posts continue to advertise your ignorance and lack of education on this topic.
     
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  8. MaxMMA Orange Belt

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    A person that walks into a martial arts gym and has never done martial arts IS an untrained person, it doesn't matter how strong their legs are from weight training, their legs are weak for fighting and will need to be strengthened through proper technique and as I already pointed out how their lifting experience could actually put them in a disadvantaged position from the start and your only rebuttal is that I've only coached and trained with shitty lifters?
     
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  9. MaxMMA Orange Belt

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    Lol, they are selling snake oil to martial artists for sure. Each martial art is already designed to condition your body to perform that art, no separate S&C required. Even fighters that are the most devout proponents of S&C (sean sherk for example) still maintain that S&C is on the back burner behind regular martial arts training.

    People go to graduate school for all kinds of shit...
     
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  10. a guy Black Belt

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    No, their legs don't need to be strengthened through proper technique. That's not what strength is. Their legs need to be coordinated through technique. But stronger muscles with good coordination will always be better than weaker muscles with good coordination. It really is that simple.

    You didn't explain how their lifting experience could put them at a disadvantage. You said it makes them slow and inflexible, and weaker than they look. Yes, that sounds like very shitty lifters. Good lifters will be more flexible because they're constantly moving weight through full ranges of motion, they'll be faster because heavy lifting increases rate of force development, and if they're weaker than they look I can only assume they were lifting with an emphasis on hypertrophy and not strength. Your criticisms of lifting have been discredited so heavily that I have no idea how people continue to perpetuate that misinformation.

    ANY coach who knows a damn thing would pick a new student with strong legs and core over weak legs and core because when applied with proper technique they lead to increased power.

    Every sport in the world does general preparation, including combat sports, but you're trying to argue they're all wasting their time? I really struggle to understand how you can think you're right when you're so uneducated about the absolute basics of programming and periodization, and every professional sport in the world disagrees with you. S&C education isn't snake oil. It's fucking science. Trying to argue otherwise is denying reality.
     
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  11. MaxMMA Orange Belt

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    You still believe that lifting strength=fighting strength, and its just not so.

    How exactly does standing stationary and moving weight up and down make you shoot a faster double leg? Help you lift a resisting body up off of the floor? Try doing that with a weighted squat technique, and you'll throw your back out haha.

    A full range of motion lift is only a portion of the range of motion you will be putting your body through during a grappling entanglement, and if a person who has never grappled before has it drilled into their muscle memory to lift weights through that certain range of motion, then their limbs will be incredibly stiff and weak when attempting to move their limbs outside of that range of motion to execute grappling techniques.

    They will be slow, because their body has been compacted under heavy weights for years into stationary standing, sitting, and lying positions for years, when fighting requires you to be loose and fluid.

    And because of the above, they will be weak to an experienced grappler.

    How many videos do you see online of the big huge dudes coming into jitz gyms only to be smashed within seconds of hitting the mats? What you can learn for those videos "A guy" is those big dudes get smashed just as fast as the normal dudes coming in for the first time.

    How are you not understanding this, It doesn't matter how much fucking weight you can squat/bench/clean, if you and I weigh the same, and our punching technique is the same, we will both punch with the same speed and power.

    It's different techniques. Lifting weights will condition your muscles to pick up heavy weights, grappling, striking will condition your muscles to execute those fighting techniques.

    If S&C had a significant impact on fighting ability, you would see much more Tyron woodly's and far less fighter bodies sculpted like diaz's, lauzons, widemans.
     
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  12. a guy Black Belt

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    This is all bro science at best. You're using terrible examples to illustrate your points. Of course new people lose to trained people, but the stronger ones do better than the weaker ones. Their limbs will be no weaker or more stiff in unusual ranges of motion than someone who never lifted, in fact they'll be stronger.

    They will be fast because lifting heavy weights increases rate of force development. Slow compared to trained fighters, but faster than weak beginners.

    S&C does have a significant impact on fighting ability, and athletic ability in general, which is why every single combat sport in the world hires S&C coaches.

    Two people with the same technique will absolutely not punch with the same speed and power if one is stronger. The stronger fighter will hit harder and faster because their muscles can produce more force, and produce that force faster. This is a basic fact. You're literally arguing against science and against reality.

    Lifting trains strength. Strength is the ability to generate maximum force, and is related to the rate at which force is produced. Technique is taking that force and applying it. The ability to produce more force, and to produce it faster, translates to technique being performed with more power.
     
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  13. Reyesnuthugr belt

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    If you're already strong I think it's pointless. Most people who lift, even if they're not big or strong, I can see stiffness in them which prevents them from being fluid in their dancing. It clearly limits them.


    I'm talking about dancing instead of fighting to avoid the backlash.
     
    #53
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  14. a guy Black Belt

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    "Already strong" being the key words there.
     
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  15. Jimmy H Brown Belt

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  16. MaxMMA Orange Belt

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    You're the one spouting bro science. Strength equals the rate of force x applying that to technique blah blah.

    If you had any significant martial arts training, particularly striking training, you would know that muscle mass isn't what generates the force to knock someone out. It's weight transfer from foot to hips, turned over to fist or foot to hips, turned over to foot. In order to generate force in this manner your body has to be loose and it has to be conditioned to move your body weight through that sequence as quickly as possible to generate maximum force.

    How in christs name, is standing, sitting or lying stationary, tensing every muscle in your body stiff in order to slowly press hundreds of pounds of weight away from your body with just your arms, or just your legs helping you to condition your body to fluidly move your body weight up from ball of your foot all the way up through your hips and out of your fist? Please explain that to me.

    There are techniques for developing this weight transfer and staying static in playing and slowing pressing pounds off your body in various places is not it. Hell slamming a hammer into a tire mimics this better than what you're talking about.

    There's a reason that every ufc embedded episode when they show the fighters new s&c routine its different than the last fighters. Thats because these s&c gurus, like you, have no martial arts experience and so they just have these fighters doing random shit that they think memics what happens in a fight. And as you said, because these s&c gurus have fancy degrees, facilities and because they showed some running back how to do sprints with a parachute on, these fighters believe they can show them how to get an edge on the competition, when the tools to win reside in the tried and true techiques and conditoning practices of the various martial arts that have been being developed for the last... idk 1000 years.

    I guess you missed the part where i said EVERYONE gets destroyed when the first enter a legit gym, theres no such thing as, well this guy lifted weights for 10 years so he came in and managed to survive without getting taped by the purples, browns, and blacks. No, when you come in and you have no experience, you get worked, end of story.

    You do insane cross fix cardio routines? Congrats, you're going to be just as winded as the couch potato, its not the same cardio. It's not the same, its not the same, its not the same.
     
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  17. MaxMMA Orange Belt

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    Finally someone gets it. Sheesh.
     
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  18. a guy Black Belt

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    I'm giving you the specific definitions of these terms. It's hard to argue when you go off on these uneducated rants but don't understand the basics of general preparation vs specific preparation, programming or periodization, don't even know what strength is. Developing maximal force production and rate of force production doesn't need to be done in sport specific movements. That's not how it works. You strengthen the muscles, then you coordinate those strong muscles with technique.

    Your failure to understand that strong muscles make technique more effective defies logic. Weight transfer is caused by the muscles: they're literally what pushes into the floor to cause weight to move. Stronger muscles move that weight faster with more force.

    Your dismissal of all S&C is ridiculous. You're trying to say you know better than all these UFC fighters, their coaches, and every sport in existence. It's bullshit. You can try to say I don't train all you want, the fact that I do isn't even relevant. Just about every expert in the world disagrees with you.
     
    #58
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  19. Noodles03 Orange Belt

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    Just my .02 cents. Heavy lifting never really helped me with sparring. It actually made me stiff and I never felt loose in the ring. Of course, what helped me the most were kettle bell swings, but that was pretty much it. I believe you're better off focusing on hitting the heavy bag, shadow boxing, jump rope, sparring and the rest should be secondary.
     
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  20. Crimson Glory TMMAC

    Crimson Glory
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    No doubt, I only plan on lifting once or maybe twice a week. (Boxing training as of right now will only be twice a week aswell, mondays and fridays. The classes I'm going too I find are pretty intense for me right now, one day of rest isn't really enough.)

    Every other day should be dedicated too training and ofcourse, a rest day here and there.

    Cardio(running, jump rope) and shadowboxing is something I plan on doing everyday.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017

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