Lifting weights and Boxing.

[rmongler]

This is bro science that ignores the entire point of the general preparation phase.

I was pumping myself up for a big trollfest but then i decided i actually agreed in part.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

GPP only starts getting extremely important after youve been training your sport for a long time imo. Unless you have a really bad strength or cardio base

 

[a guy]

GPP only starts getting extremely important after youve been training your sport for a long time imo. Unless you have a really bad strength or cardio base

I somewhat agree, especially for people who are just training as a hobby. But anyone who is looking to take it seriously should be investing in S&C work as early as possible. A good base of strength, cardio, flexibility, balance, power, speed and endurance makes all the rest of your training both more productive and less likely to lead to injury.

 

[MaxMMA]

Literally every single sport does GPP work. Sport specific work is important, but if you think improving things like maximal strength and aerobic endurance through S&C doesn't translate into boxing you're simply uneducated. Unless you think pro boxers are throwing money away on S&C coaches for the fun of it.

It doesn't, the body mechanics and muscle memory/development that allow you to lift 300lbs over your chest are completely different that the body mechanics and muscle memory/development that allow you to throw a punch with maximum speed and power.

This is why you see people that look like they don't lift weights, beating the shit out of people that look like they do lift weights and vice versa. If lifting weights played a significant part in the outcome of a fight, everyone would walk into the cage yoked.

Here is the man himself on his thoughts of S&C.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

It doesn't, the body mechanics and muscle memory/development that allow you to lift 300lbs over your chest are completely different that the body mechanics and muscle memory/development that allow you to throw a punch with maximum speed and power.

This is why you see people that look like they don't lift weights, beating the shit out of people that look like they do lift weights and vice versa. If lifting weights played a significant part in the outcome of a fight, everyone would walk into the cage yoked.

Here is the man himself on his thoughts of S&C.

I've seen and heard of boxers doing high reps with low weight to build muscle endurance. You don't think that helps?

 

[a guy]

It doesn't, the body mechanics and muscle memory/development that allow you to lift 300lbs over your chest are completely different that the body mechanics and muscle memory/development that allow you to throw a punch with maximum speed and power.

This is why you see people that look like they don't lift weights, beating the shit out of people that look like they do lift weights and vice versa. If lifting weights played a significant part in the outcome of a fight, everyone would walk into the cage yoked.

Here is the man himself on his thoughts of S&C.

...you do know tons of successful fighters do lift weights and look jacked, right? You also do know lifting doesn't bulk you up when volume intensity and diet are controlled, right? A brief comment by GSP doesn't disprove the mountains of real world evidence in favor of GPP work. Strength training makes power and speed training safer and more effective. Stronger, faster muscles make technique even better. The flaw with looking at professional athletes is most of them already have great strength and cardio bases, so they get diminishing returns. But it's an indisputable fact that if you take two guys with equal technique, the stronger one will hit harder.

Again, every single sport uses GPP. Sport specific work isn't enough. If you think it is you're uneducated.

 

[MaxMMA]

I've seen and heard of boxers doing high reps with low weight to build muscle endurance. You don't think that helps?

In my younger days I lifted weights, then I switched to body weight routines. sometimes 400-500 pushups, 400-500 lunges/jumping lunges/squats/jumping squats/box jumps. Pull ups, rings. You name it I was hitting it.

I felt probably the best when I was doing my body weight stuff, I felt strong, I looked great. I felt like I could fight non stop for rounds on end. Then one day I got tired of doing all that shit 3-5 days a week, and working a day job, and participating in fight camp after fight camp for myself and my teammates.

So I stopped doing the body weight routines, and you know what? I still feel like I can fight for rounds and rounds when I spar. Why's that I wonder? probably because I still wrestle, I still do jiujitsu, I still box. All that extra shit was just that. Extra shit.

 

[MaxMMA]

...you do know tons of successful fighters do lift weights and look jacked, right? You also do know lifting doesn't bulk you up when volume intensity and diet are controlled, right? A brief comment by GSP doesn't disprove the mountains of real world evidence in favor of GPP work. Strength training makes power and speed training safer and more effective. Stronger, faster muscles make technique even better. The flaw with looking at professional athletes is most of them already have great strength and cardio bases, so they get diminishing returns. But it's an indisputable fact that if you take two guys with equal technique, the stronger one will hit harder.

Again, every single sport uses GPP. Sport specific work isn't enough. If you think it is you're uneducated.

Yes I know tons of pro fighters look jacked... that's why I said vise versa. The only one that is uneducated here is you. That indisputable fact you rambled off, is not a fact at all. If you have 2 fighters of equal weight and equal punching technique (impossible for a number of reasons and factors), one fighter squats 300lbs the other squats 200lbs then their punching power is still equal, as punching power is derived from technique, not physical strength.

 

[a guy]

Yes I know tons of pro fighters look jacked... that's why I said vise versa. The only one that is uneducated here is you. That indisputable fact you rambled off, is not a fact at all. If you have 2 fighters of equal weight and equal punching technique (impossible for a number of reasons and factors), one fighter squats 300lbs the other squats 200lbs then their punching power is still equal, as punching power is derived from technique, not physical strength.

Not at all. That's ridiculously untrue. Stronger muscles mean more force AND more speed. Technique takes the power you produce and delivers it to the target. The stronger guy will produce more power with the same technique. This is true of every technique, and even the BJJ guys obsessed with technique over strength acknowledge that the stronger guy will win everything else being equal.

 

[MaxMMA]

Not at all. That's ridiculously untrue. Stronger muscles mean more force AND more speed. Technique takes the power you produce and delivers it to the target. The stronger guy will produce more power with the same technique. This is true of every technique, and even the BJJ guys obsessed with technique over strength acknowledge that the stronger guy will win everything else being equal.

Punching power is not derived from strength... how many times do I have to say this. It is derived from a weight transfer, from the balls of your feet, through your legs up through your hips, trunk and to the end of your fist. 2 fighters, equal weight, equal technique, transfer their body weight from the ball of their foot, up to the end of their fist, in what way does being able to lift heavy weights aid in this weight transfer?
It doesn't, what does aid in this weight transfer is strengthening the amount of force you can generate from this weight transfer and the speed at which you can transfer your weight, and you don't do that by doing bicep curls. You do it, by practicing this weight transfer every single day.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Punching power is not derived from strength... how many times do I have to say this. It is derived from a weight transfer, from the balls of your feet, through your legs up through your hips, trunk and to the end of your fist. 2 fighters, equal weight, equal technique, transfer their body weight from the ball of their foot, up to the end of their fist, in what way does being able to lift heavy weights aid in this weight transfer?
It doesn't, what does aid in this weight transfer is strengthening the amount of force you can generate from this weight transfer and the speed at which you can transfer your weight, and you don't do that by doing bicep curls. You do it, by practicing this weight transfer every single day.

some people just naturally hit harder tho because of the way their body is put together. bone density for example.

 

[a guy]

Punching power is not derived from strength... how many times do I have to say this. It is derived from a weight transfer, from the balls of your feet, through your legs up through your hips, trunk and to the end of your fist. 2 fighters, equal weight, equal technique, transfer their body weight from the ball of their foot, up to the end of their fist, in what way does being able to lift heavy weights aid in this weight transfer?
It doesn't, what does aid in this weight transfer is strengthening the amount of force you can generate from this weight transfer and the speed at which you can transfer your weight, and you don't do that by doing bicep curls. You do it, by practicing this weight transfer every single day.

...stronger legs transfer weight with more force and speed. Power comes from technique, strength and speed. Technique being the most important obviously.

 

[j123]

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[MaxMMA]

...stronger legs transfer weight with more force and speed. Power comes from technique, strength and speed. Technique being the most important obviously.

Wrong, AGAIN.
Power comes from speed, speed comes from technique, how much weight you can pick up off the floor has nothing to do with it.

If you have strengthened your legs to squat hundreds of pounds, then you have developed your leg strength... to lift hundreds of pounds. In no way shape or form is doing a squat anything like transferring your body weight from the ball of your foot to the end of your fist.

If you lift weights, and gain 5lbs, then you will increase your power, because you are using your technique to transfer 5 more pounds of weight from your foot to your fist.

However, if you have 2 fighters, same weight, one squats 300lbs, one squats 200lbs, both using the exact same body mechanics to transfer their weight from foot to fist, explain to me how the fighter who can squat 300 is going to have more power? They both weigh the same, both of their bodies are going through the same process to move that weight into their punch.

 

[a guy]

Wrong, AGAIN.
Power comes from speed, speed comes from technique, how much weight you can pick up off the floor has nothing to do with it.

If you have strengthened your legs to squat hundreds of pounds, then you have developed your leg strength... to lift hundreds of pounds. In no way shape or form is doing a squat anything like transferring your body weight from the ball of your foot to the end of your fist.

If you lift weights, and gain 5lbs, then you will increase your power, because you are using your technique to transfer 5 more pounds of weight from your foot to your fist.

However, if you have 2 fighters, same weight, one squats 300lbs, one squats 200lbs, both using the exact same body mechanics to transfer their weight from foot to fist, explain to me how the fighter who can squat 300 is going to have more power? They both weigh the same, both of their bodies are going through the same process to move that weight into their punch.

Power by definition is force (strength) times speed. Stronger muscles lead to more power (also to more speed but there are other factors). Someone who can squat more has stronger legs which are capable of pushing into the ground to produce more force and produce it at a higher rate. That means the two fighters will have the same technique, but the stronger fighter's technique will be faster and have more force driving it. In addition the stronger fighter will have a more solid core that allows them transfer the power generated by their legs through their body more effectively. These are basic physiological facts that apply to any technique in any sport.

I can't repeat this enough, but literally every sport does GPP work. You're essentially arguing that professional athletes are pissing away millions of dollars on S&C coaches for no reason. It defies logic.

 

[MaxMMA]

Power by definition is force (strength) times speed. Stronger muscles lead to more power (also to more speed but there are other factors). Someone who can squat more has stronger legs which are capable of pushing into the ground to produce more force and produce it at a higher rate. That means the two fighters will have the same technique, but the stronger fighter's technique will be faster and have more force driving it. In addition the stronger fighter will have a more solid core that allows them transfer the power generated by their legs through their body more effectively. These are basic physiological facts that apply to any technique in any sport.

I can't repeat this enough, but literally every sport does GPP work. You're essentially arguing that professional athletes are pissing away millions of dollars on S&C coaches for no reason. It defies logic.

How much Martial arts experience do you have? Obviously S&C would be advantages in a sport like say, football. Where line backers are trying to hold hundreds of pounds of weight at bay. Or baseball, where a batter can have more weight to transfer into the swing of his bat to knock a ball out of the park.

You keep saying, "Two fighters with equal technique, the stronger fighters technique will be faster" The concept you fail, or refuse to accept is that when it comes to unarmed combat, technique determines how much speed/force/strength is applied not the other way around. So if you have 2 fighters of equal/identical weight and technique(virtually impossible) then they of equal/identical strength regardless of weight room numbers.

Fighter A: Weighs 170lbs, has developed his punching power to 50 PSI through repetitive boxing training/drilling
Fighter B: Weighs 170lbs, has developed his punching power to 50 PSI through repetitive boxing training/drilling & he can squat 300lbs
They both still have the same punching power, fighter B probably has some well defined calves/quads.

You don't plant both feet flat on the ground, drop your ass below you knees and then push up off the ground to throw a punch. Hell, that's not even what you do to execute a double leg pickup.

 

[a guy]

How much Martial arts experience do you have? Obviously S&C would be advantages in a sport like say, football. Where line backers are trying to hold hundreds of pounds of weight at bay. Or baseball, where a batter can have more weight to transfer into the swing of his bat to knock a ball out of the park.

You keep saying, "Two fighters with equal technique, the stronger fighters technique will be faster" The concept you fail, or refuse to accept is that when it comes to unarmed combat, technique determines how much speed/force/strength is applied not the other way around. So if you have 2 fighters of equal/identical weight and technique(virtually impossible) then they of equal/identical strength regardless of weight room numbers.

Fighter A: Weighs 170lbs, has developed his punching power to 50 PSI through repetitive boxing training/drilling
Fighter B: Weighs 170lbs, has developed his punching power to 50 PSI through repetitive boxing training/drilling & he can squat 300lbs
They both still have the same punching power, fighter B probably has some well defined calves/quads.

You don't plant both feet flat on the ground, drop your ass below you knees and then push up off the ground to throw a punch. Hell, that's not even what you do to execute a double leg pickup.

Technique controls how much power is APPLIED, not how much is generated. Let's say two fighters have both trained their technique to the same level and can transfer 80% of the power their muscles generate to the target. The stronger one will produce more power, so even though equal percentages get applied through technique the stronger fighter will still hit harder.

What you fail to grasp is that technique doesn't just happen. Technique is the coordination of your muscles in a specific pattern. Coordinating weak muscles is worse than coordinating strong muscles. It's that simple. In your example fighter B would have to have worse technique otherwise that massive gap in leg strength would be evident in the power.

You also fail to grasp and continue to ignore the fact that athletes in every single sport, including combat sports, spend money and time with S&C coaches. It's very transparent why you won't respond to this point.

You're completely ignorant of the basics of periodization and programming. As a matter of fact, based on what you wrote you don't even know what the words strength or power actually mean.

 

[Ilk]

While your thinking has some logic behind I will argue eith sprinting for example. 2 athletes with ssme technique and weight can still run at a different speed. The one that is stronger perhaps will be also faster. They both transfer the ssme weight but at different speed which means it is done with different power.

Even at soccer we did tons of lower body excersises to develope leg strenght and enduarance.

 

[a guy]

While your thinking has some logic behind I will argue eith sprinting for example. 2 athletes with ssme technique and weight can still run at a different speed. The one that is stronger perhaps will be also faster. They both transfer the ssme weight but at different speed which means it is done with different power.

Even at soccer we did tons of lower body excersises to develope leg strenght and enduarance.

This applies to literally any technique in any sport. Technique is the coordination of muscles to perform a movement. Assuming the same levels of coordination, stronger muscles will always beat weaker muscles. That's all there is to it.

But that's not even touching on other advantages, primarily the reduced risk of injury.

And the guy isn't just talking about strength. He also said working on your cardio won't translate to fighting, only to running/swimming/cycling. Guess every boxer who's ever done roadwork is an idiot.

 

[MaxMMA]

Technique controls how much power is APPLIED, not how much is generated. Let's say two fighters have both trained their technique to the same level and can transfer 80% of the power their muscles generate to the target. The stronger one will produce more power, so even though equal percentages get applied through technique the stronger fighter will still hit harder.

What you fail to grasp is that technique doesn't just happen. Technique is the coordination of your muscles in a specific pattern. Coordinating weak muscles is worse than coordinating strong muscles. It's that simple.

You also fail to grasp and continue to ignore the fact that athletes in every single sport, including combat sports, spend money and time with S&C coaches. It's very transparent why you won't respond to this point.

You're completely ignorant of the basics of periodization and programming.

LOFL, technique absolutely controls how much power is generated.

You are right about one thing though, technique is the coordination of your muscles into a specific pattern. However, if I'm coordinating my muscles into a pattern of punching, it doesn't matter if those muscles are strong or weak, over 1000's of repetitions of coordinating those muscles into that punching pattern, they will be strong for and from executing that pattern.
If those muscles were strengthened by a pattern of lifting weights, then those muscles are strong for and from lifting weights.
2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT patterns.
Having muscles strengthened through resistance training isn't going to make your muscles any stronger for executing a coordination of those muscles into a punching pattern.

Which question have I not responded to, and why have you not responded to my question of martial arts experience?