Leg locks...The new standard? | Page 3

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Unr8dBJJ, Nov 3, 2017.

  1. rmongler Brown Belt

    rmongler
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    The question remains, why is this any more a problem than people who base their game on, say, armbars from closed guard, or back takes from de la riva, or single legs from half guard?

    There is no shortage of any of these archetypes i assure you.



    People always speak of these things in terms of someone on top 'dropping back', when in fact it's greatest utility is when you're already on bottom; indeed, i would say it is likely the most effective way of fighting while on bottom (besides simply escaping and trying to take them down again). And because it is so effective, people need to know it so they have people to practice with so they know how to deal with it too.

    Backstepping into saddle is a legitimate way to attack DLR or HG anyways.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017 at 2:01 PM
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  2. ziggyholiday White Belt

    ziggyholiday
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    "Just dropping back for a leg lock" will typically lead to the other person coming up in top instead of a finish. Now if they control the hip and sit to attack instead of passing....well that's more of a solid way of doing things isn't?

    Doing it the wrong way or sloppily will lead to getting smashed and that person will either learn the right way or go "legs locks are dumb and don't work" and stop doing it. Either way, problem solved.
     
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  3. lechien Gold Belt

    lechien
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    At my club, I am very strict about following ibjjf rules etc..

    But I know some other gyms that are loose as.

    We are talking heel hook anyone and everyone.

    Not sure if the coaches or owner really cares.

    One of my first students came from another gym like mma style. And he was told that hh are great because Bjj guys don't know how to defend them.
     
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  4. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    BJJ_Rage
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    I strongly believe you need to learn how to knee cut, toreando over under double under etc pass, put pressure and manage your weight as a white and blue, at least try to, if you allow them for shorcuts to get a "win", you will be neglecting those aspecs, yes backstep to saddle/411 etc is a great way to fight dlr, but im more concern with my students to know how to backstep free leg and pass, rather than back step for a kneebar, ankle lock/ let alone hh.

    no one is denying that leg locks are a great weapon, right now are my go to attacks from guard, but I have a really good back control, rnc, triangles from guarnd and othe basic moves because I didnt start attacking them till I turn purple. You have to consider that we are not talking here about competitors, at least im not, if I was going to run a competition team, yeah sure, leg lock the shit out of everyone, is not my situation though.

    Is just my opinion.
     
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  5. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    BJJ_Rage
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    I dont follow IBJJF rules to the maximun, reaping, I dont care, hh are not allow and toe holds not tll purple, why? cause I dont want white belts ego to be playing white belts knees. Ankle locks here and there I have no problem, here and there is not basing his game around them though.

    hh are great, and I agree that most bjj guys dont know how to defend them, even if they theoretically do, I dont think most gyms put enough time on drilling defenses to hh. Even high belts, hell, at my gym, im quite sure theres not a single person has drlled hh defenses. At other more traditional gyms, hh are not even mention. Subgrappling rules are very rare in this part of the world, you have to be in a mma gym to train them.
     
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  6. rmongler Brown Belt

    rmongler
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    This isn't responsive to my main points; why should anyone care about triangles from guard? The possibility of ending a fight from bottom? You can do that with leg entanglements too. Maybe even better.

    The point is that there is cognitive dissonance between contradictory sentiments at play here, that shows there's a problem with the thinking somewhere; in the difference in how many bjj players often talk when discussing playing guard vs playing top in general, and how those same guys talk when discussing leg locks in particular.

    Why keep bringing up the age old straw man of 'dropping back' from top position for leg locks, as if that's the only place you can get them? As if knowing leg locks somehow blocks you from knowing how to pass, but knowing an armbar somehow doesn't?

    If you are worried about students not getting enough experience attacking on top, then tell them that's what you're going to do. Nothing is stopping you from doing positional sparring and drills, based around accomplishing one objective or another.

    If, in the absence of a structured curriculum, people who's options in attacking from bottom revolve around something like the classic closed guard 3, choose to forgoe opportunities to play that in favor of being on top, while people who's options include saddle slx and or 50/50 entries, choose to go to those overwhelmingly and in almost any case, what else could that imply, but the deficiency of the former, and the disproportionate effectiveness of the latter?

    Certainly, it is important for someone who wishes to play top to learn how to deal with someone looking to get in on a leg entanglement; in fact, i'd say it's likely the most important thing a top player needs to learn about. And where are people who know leg entanglements for you to train with gona come from? You gotta train them too.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
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  7. JustTheTip Green Belt

    JustTheTip
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    This. Because "sub only" is popular and IBJJF points get poo pooed, people seem to forget that the basic BJJ positioning is great for self defense itself.Being effective and gaining and defending positions is more important than being able to shoot for subs from anywhere. Establishing a firm foundation of being able to pass,defend guard and to advance/defend positions is important if you want to be a capable grappler.After establishing that foundation(usually takes years) then it is much easier to work in leg submissions(less than a year of focused practice).
     
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  8. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    BJJ_Rage
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    Most people don't have 3 hours a day to train, most people only show up a couple of times a week, with limited time I should make the best of the situation. Shooting a triangle is way more important as a white belt That getting anything else. Imo the tirangle is the only reliable attack from guard in a sd scenario, white belts should still have that. In mind.

    White belts need to learn how to pass stay on top mount sub, escape side control and other more basic stuff, they do not have that many hours to drill all that plus leg entanglements. And it's worth for shit anything we drill in if they are only going to start looking for leg attacks as soon as the roll starts.

    They can do all that once they reach blue, or purple, I will gladly drill with them and teach the few tricks i know...
     
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  9. rmongler Brown Belt

    rmongler
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    If time is really such a crunch you probably shouldn't be teaching them to mess around with submissions from bottom at all; have them practice technical stand ups then move on to more important things, like kuzushi.


    Is it, really? i think that's very arguable. There's no shortage of people successfully using leg entanglements in 'social combat' even with their relative obscurity, and it's disproportionate success in dedicated competition speaks for itself; it is a highly instinctual and natural progression to attack the legs first when on bottom.


    I agree completely.


    But they do have time for even more marginal bottom fighting strategies? There's that cognitive dissonance again.


    I think, like my implication in the other post, that this is a problem with the structure of curriculum as much as anything else.

    For example, if you were to go to a hypothetical highschool around here and watch a folkstyle practice while the kids are doing timed goes, you'll probably see that they're not just faffing about aimlessly, but that there are specific situations they keep trying to get to. Why? Because they are mentally keeping score. Score of what? The ruleset they compete under.

    The problem with free rolling in many bjj gyms is that the 'mental tallies' people use to keep track of how well they are doing in a roll are based on either sub only or ibjjf rules. Why is this a problem? Because ibjjf rules reward you for being on bottom.

    People respond to incentives; that people, in a free rolling environment, chose to voluntarily and disproportionately forgo top even when gifted it in favor of going for the legs speaks to the disproportionate effectiveness of leglocks in that particular metagame.

    If you want your students, unsupervised, outside of positional rolls and drills, to actually and actively seek top, you'd need to change that culture surrounding the roll; you'd need different rulesets people would default to in absence of further direction for mentally tracking how well they are doing in a roll. One way you might do this is by holding bimonthly in-house or open mat tournaments with your own ruleset geared towards rewarding grappling habits you find most valuable.

    One thing is for sure though: banning techniques because they are so effective is the opposite of excellence and liveness in martial arts; it's the path to mcdojos and kata bunnies.

    Leglocks are a power source amongst the wider grappling universe, and power sources don't actually go away if you demand them to go away; what happens is that the good kids who follow the rules and listen to their leader and observe the traditions are now power-less against those outcaste ne'er-do-wells who do use the power source, in spite of sanctions otherwise. If you deliver a message, in so many words by so many means, that good guys don't seek power and only bad guys do, naturally, you'll guarantee the fulfillment of your prophecy.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
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  10. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    BJJ_Rage
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    I believe fighting off your back and subs from bottom are pretty handy and a must thing to know for every bjj practitioner, I dont believe you cant fight off your back that be in SD, grappling or whatever, I dont believe technical stand up is the first thing you should do if you fall on the ground, and I dont have in mind a trillong opponents when I teach grappling for fighting, its 1 on 1, if you are outnumber, you better be big have a good striking a lots of friends, all of those scenarios go beyond my control.
     
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  11. ChainFlow Brown Belt

    ChainFlow
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    You didn't really address his points, though. WHY do you think that leg locks from bottom are worse to practice than other moves like armbars or whatever? Why is a technical standup not a more efficient thing to train than fighting from bottom if you're concerned with self-defense training for students who only make it in a couple times per week? If holding side control and stuff is so important, what's wrong with teaching a game built around takedowns & top pressure, and if you're on the bottom, trying to get up to go back to takedowns and top pressure and going for a leglock if you can't?

    You're stating what you believe but not really fleshing out why you believe it.
     
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  12. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    BJJ_Rage
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    I did, all of what you said, i said i think Fighting off your back is very important, why? The guard is the core of Bjj. Close guard is the fist guard you should learn, is the safest guard when shit hits the fan... why not fight off your back while using leg locks? Could you do it? Sure, not as a white belt though, theres enough time to do it later on... I will be embarrassed if my student couldn't lock a triangle or a basic sweep from close Guard.

    It's just my opinion, I'm not Sayjng is the only valid opinion though.
     
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  13. BJJ Devotee Four Stripe BJJ Orange Belt

    BJJ Devotee
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    When I first began my BJJ training, I would rarely encounter leg locks in a roll, and never in a competition. If anything, leg locks were frowned upon a number of years ago (at my first gym at the very least). Nowadays, I encounter leg locks very frequently at my current gym. I find myself escaping leg locks initiated by purple belts and above at least twice a roll. So yes, I do believe that leg locks are becoming the new norm. Watch the annual Eddie Bravo Invitational, and leg locks are the most common submissions used by the world class competitors who participate. From when I began my BJJ training in 2010 to now, leg locks have evolved from rare and sometimes frowned upon to common and very effective.
     
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