1. Season 6 of the International Shoop League is now active! Click here to vote on your favorite shoop submissions!

Leg locks...The new standard?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Unr8dBJJ, Nov 3, 2017.

  1. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,631
    Likes Received:
    369
    Location:
    London, UK
    That's all true, but it's also important not to forget that the mount gets four points in BJJ because of strikes, not submission opportunities. Sometimes what the DDS guys are doing looks like tightened-up Shooto as much as it does BJJ.

    I guess the good ship Fighting Applicability sailed out of Sport BJJ Harbour some years ago now, but these developments do seem to drift them even further apart. Does anyone know if Danaher has said anything on the topic? Especially given he wrote the pretty-much-definitive explanation of the positional hierarchy doctrine in Mastering Jujitsu.
     
  2. MaxMMA

    MaxMMA Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,990
    Likes Received:
    2,155
    Location:
    Deez
    Maybe it was just a difference in the training idk, but I was never instructed to not attack subs, regardless of the position I was in and the training we conducted was almost entirely in preparation for MMA. My instructor and many of the fighters in our gym at the time were from the NHB era and they did preach position before submission. Yet we drilled foot locks all time, including sitting back for them in guard, we even drilled springing onto knee bars and toe holds from the N/S position. We just didn't have all the refinement that these top leg lock gurus have.

    Sure we never had a class that taught us in 1 session to latch onto a kimura from anywhere and then try to advance to a finishing position, but we did drill the kimura from every possible position/situation including drilling specifically as a TDD/reversal tool so by the time someone became a blue belt, they multiple ways to use the kimura besides just the traditional guard, or side mount top kimuras.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
    Franklegit and mataleaos like this.
  3. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    18,414
    Likes Received:
    3,778
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Maybe we're just talking past each other. You're talking about going for all these submissions, and I'm saying that people aren't thinking of footlocks and kimuras or whatever primarily as submissions anymore, they're thinking about them first as positions with all that means and only then as submissions. So for example, when I've had the chance to go to DDS seminars, while they do talk about finishing you first spend time on positional control in leg entanglements, then you talk about transitions you can make into different entanglements based on how uke defends the position, and only then do you talk about actually finishing the sub. I don't know about you, but when I first learned the kimura I was taught how to get the lock and finish it from a few different positions. What I wasn't taught that you would be now is the notion that the kimura *grip itself* is a position, that while there are times you can finish there are also times when you're use it to transition to the back, or to an arm bar, and that the most important thing is to maintain the grip and keep control of the position through uke's transitions and only finish when you can do so with certainty that you won't lose it. I think the mindset is pretty different than it used to be. Maybe that's just me, but I don't think so.
     
  4. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,730
    Likes Received:
    4,135
    lister learn from sambo.

    gordon ryan is going to hh all of them, at the same time, get fucking real.
     
  5. MaxMMA

    MaxMMA Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,990
    Likes Received:
    2,155
    Location:
    Deez
    Maybe we are, the point I was trying to make is that even though we didn't have the same details from these positions/subs we were still drilling them and back then. Even though our instructors still preached position before submission, that was mostly just something to say to white belts and they still drilled us to seamlessly roll from one position/submission to the next position/submission. To the point that by time a white belt became blue they had multiple techniques to chain off of any position, submission, or situation they may find themselves in.
     
    mataleaos likes this.
  6. Submission

    Submission White Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    25
    Uchi, do you advocate that, once you get a kimura grip, you should never let it go and that there's always a way to something better, either take a superior position or finish?
     
  7. mataleaos

    mataleaos Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,982
    Likes Received:
    1,584
    You didn't ask me but if I have a kimura grip I see almost no reason to let it go because there's always a sweep, pass, back attack, or another submission right around the corner. Especially without the gi.
     
    Submission and Franklegit like this.
  8. The Thrill

    The Thrill Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    129
    Location:
    stuck in a triangle
    im not a big leglock guy at all, in fact i rarely go for them in training unless somebody is just blatantly handing me their foot on a silver platter...but strangely enough, ive had to use my training 4 times in the street in the 10+ years ive been training-one of them was a rear naked choke, but the other three were all footlocks, and i never came close to being hit
     
    mataleaos and Franklegit like this.
  9. Coconutwater

    Coconutwater Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,576
    Likes Received:
    1,243
    Well said.

    It’s literally looking at something we’ve all done and recontextualised it.
     
  10. JustTheTip

    JustTheTip Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2014
    Messages:
    1,402
    Likes Received:
    270

    This here.
     
    mataleaos likes this.
  11. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2007
    Messages:
    16,158
    Likes Received:
    1,226
    At my friend Bjj gym, the white belts only wants to learn heelhooks.

    One of my new students told me that he trained at an mma gym. The taught him heelhookd but he did not even know what a straight ankle lock.

    Small competition organisers are now copying lot of the adcc rules.
     
    mataleaos likes this.
  12. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,730
    Likes Received:
    4,135
    White belts should not do Hh, no matter what, not only because they are a danger with them, but it will hinder their development as grapplers immensely
     
    JustTheTip and mataleaos like this.
  13. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2007
    Messages:
    16,158
    Likes Received:
    1,226
    Basically at the other gym. Blue belt heelhook the white belts.
     
  14. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,730
    Likes Received:
    4,135
    Another moron... Blue belts shouldn't either, specially to whitebelts. If they're rolling with a higher belt and the rules are set on before rolling it's ok I would say, let's say the higher belt wants to get some training with Hh, so they both go.. But a blue Hhing. White belt? That's just plain wrong
     
  15. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,929
    Likes Received:
    3,146
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Hinder how?

    >uhhh, they won't focus on passing or being on top and stuff...?

    So many bjj players do that already. The Miyaos were poster children of this fact; it wasn't until late brown/blackbelt level that they really started becoming proficient in things besides berimbolo backtakes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
  16. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,730
    Likes Received:
    4,135
    yes.

    Just becasue there was a berimbolo fad doesnt mean no one will ever focus on that besides to play miyaos game you need to have a certain type of physical attributes. To attack the legs you dont.

    You need to have a certain understanding of grappling in general in order to start attacking the legs, at least I would like my students to have.
     
  17. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2007
    Messages:
    16,158
    Likes Received:
    1,226

    Well you can blame abcc, dds and ebi for that mentality.

    How can you blame them? ..when you read that a 15 years old is submitng bb with hh.

    Hh is now the st grall.

    Even the latest development for the ibjjf legal stuff like single x guard and straight ankle is very pop ular and people are getting really good at it.

    Never seen such level of efficiency in leg lock and it is due to the latest trend.
     
  18. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,929
    Likes Received:
    3,146
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Well for starters...

    Berimbolo never stopped being a fad, we stopped calling it a fad now because everyone knows it, and forms an important part of the game of a significant number of competitors; berimbolo is a 'good, basic, fundamental' move now.

    Secondly, before the berimbolo, it was a 'try to triangle and scissor or hook sweep' fad; bjj players who try to argue against learning leg locks on account of the possibility it could disincentivize playing top for some people have no leg to stand on; that has always been the predominant mode of play in the jiu jitsu universe.
     
  19. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,730
    Likes Received:
    4,135
    Your confusing learning leg locks with basing your game on them.

    I personally don't all that in my class, eventhough I'm probably the biggest leg lock fan in my country. White belts dropping to ankle locks is a no no my class.
     
  20. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,730
    Likes Received:
    4,135
    I believe is my responsibility as instructor to guide them, at least till the turn purple or blue....
     

Share This Page