Learning Grappling Without An Academy Or Gym

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Considering all styles of martial arts came from experimentation and innovation, how important do you believe it is to train at an actual gym with an established curriculum?

Do you believe a group of neighborhood friends who grappled each other could develop their own practice and establish a style that may not be a replica of formal styles but effective in its own right nonetheless?

Do you think it is worth the charge of a monthly membership to practice a formal style

OR

Do you think everyone has the potential to develop an effective skillset if they put in the training hours, even if it isn't under the roof of an established gym?

 

[lts5025]

You’re just going to be a bunch of uncoordinated nerds rolling around with each other. You need instruction and feedback and correction from someone knowledgeable.

 

[MRT]

looking at it from a statistical standpoint...

martial arts evolve over a long period of time, with handed-down techniques, with a great number of practitioners, and typically is 'battle tested' in competition and sparring across gyms/regions/etc.

the combined man hours for an art to evolve is *huge*

the chances that a small 'group of friends', in a relative limited number of hours overall, and 'starting from scratch' could produce anything of consequence in virtually nil.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

You’re just going to be a bunch of uncoordinated nerds rolling around with each other. You need instruction and feedback and correction from someone knowledgeable.

What is your take on Luta Livre? Their teacher was a catch wrestler but he began experimenting with his own ideas. I'm not saying you have to completely start from scratch. If one of you has a background, why not experiment?

Experience is a good teacher. You don't think you can make improvements by testing each other in a live go?

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

looking at it from a statistical standpoint...

martial arts evolve over a long period of time, with handed-down techniques, with a great number of practitioners, and typically is 'battle tested' in competition and sparring across gyms/regions/etc.

the combined man hours for an art to evolve is *huge*

the chances that a small 'group of friends', in a relative limited number of hours overall, and 'starting from scratch' could produce anything of consequence in virtually nil.

Hmmm....I respect that. The two most accomplished fighters I know were brothers who sparred each other all the time. They developed their game from the man hours as you said. If they weren't working in the gym, they were working at home.

The gym they go to isn't known for having world class instruction. Most of the time there isn't a coach present only equipment, and a ring. One of the gym's top fighters is a two time regional champion, and a national qualifier. He says his coach is YouTube lol.

The actual gym coach, in his words, didn't even try to teach him until after he won the regional tournament. I feel it can be done. However, the variable that makes me present the question is that these examples I gave are all strikers. This got me curious about a more forum specific topic. Can a group of grapplers without coaching produce similar results?

 

[lts5025]

What is your take on Luta Livre? Their teacher was a catch wrestler but he began experimenting with his own ideas. I'm not saying you have to completely start from scratch. If one of you has a background, why not experiment?

Experience is a good teacher. You don't think you can make improvements by testing each other in a live go?

You’re comparing a catch wrestler with 20 years of experience and extensive cross training to what? Who in your friend group has a background in anything?

 

[Newave]

This entirely depends on what the goal is. Are you trying to win high level grappling tournaments? Then no. You need to learn from and train with the best. You also need to train very very regularly, and a good bjj gym is open everyday, while rarely is a group of friends able to train together everyday. A low level grappling tourney, I think you could win some matches if you put in the man hours, have a really good group of guys to train with, and are a natural athlete. Or are you just trying to have enough skill to choke someone out if you get into a fight at a frat party? Then yeah, you could definitely accomplish that.

As for developing some new style, I don’t see that happening. Pretty much anything you effectively do to a human on the ground has been discovered and refined. Maybe there’s a different way of doing one or two particular things you could discover, but there’s just not enough undiscovered territory to create an entirely new style in confines of gravity and 4 limbs.

 

[yetanother]

Do you believe a group of neighborhood friends who grappled each other could develop their own practice and establish a style that may not be a replica of formal styles but effective in its own right nonetheless?

It's super hard to learn with people who haven't got a clue what they should be doing.
If you don't have any outside technique you will have a hard time discovering what effective.
Even if you watch quality stuff from the internet it will be a lot harder to learn that because you don't know anything yet.

 

[empsim]

if you grapple a lot you will get better at grappling eventually, thats just how things work

you'll learn more in 1 week with a good coach than in 1 year without one though

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

You’re comparing a catch wrestler with 20 years of experience and extensive cross training to what? Who in your friend group has a background in anything?

I'm not talking about my friend group. I was speaking in general. As far as me I've wrestled in high school, been a member of the local judo club under USJF, and had some experience at the local 10th Planet gym. I also have 6 certifications under ISSA, so I know how to train and create a program.

I can go to classes, I have no problem with mat time. I also find that me and my other friends who may have wrestled in h.s., played football, or done mma like to mix it up at informal places like a park or even a parking lot (standing clinch work).

You won't see fancy stuff but you'll see fast paced, aggressive basics such as snap downs, front headlocks, duck unders, foot sweeps, leg reaps, bodylocks, kesa gatames, side control, north/south, dogfighting, Americanas, RNCs etc. Our stand up work is heavily emphasized when we go live. We all box as well. So we especially like to clinch fight.

I did not mean to inflame you (if I have), or make this about me. I don't need personal advice or direction in this matter. It's just for the sake of conversation, and sharing perspective. Thanks.

 

[yetanother]

I'm not talking about my friend group. I was speaking in general. As far as me I've wrestled in high school, been a member of the local judo club under USJF, and had some experience at the local 10th Planet gym. I also have 6 certifications under ISSA, so I know how to train and create a program.

If you have grappling experience it's a completely different situation.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

This entirely depends on what the goal is. Are you trying to win high level grappling tournaments? Then no. You need to learn from and train with the best. You also need to train very very regularly, and a good bjj gym is open everyday, while rarely is a group of friends able to train together everyday. A low level grappling tourney, I think you could win some matches if you put in the man hours, have a really good group of guys to train with, and are a natural athlete. Or are you just trying to have enough skill to choke someone out if you get into a fight at a frat party? Then yeah, you could definitely accomplish that.

As for developing some new style, I don’t see that happening. Pretty much anything you effectively do to a human on the ground has been discovered and refined. Maybe there’s a different way of doing one or two particular things you could discover, but there’s just not enough undiscovered territory to create an entirely new style in confines of gravity and 4 limbs.

This post isn't about me I know some may have taken it that way. Most of my posts are in general. I'm not a teen looking for affirmation from my fellow sherdog users. If I have a question concerning me personally I'll direct it as such, and I'll usually inbox a user whom I suspect has experience in the manner based off the content I've seen from them.

I like how you mentioned pretty much anything you can effectively do with the human body has been discovered. That is true, one torso, one head, four limbs. Maybe not so much for them to develop a new system but to become proficient in their own goals of learning how to grapple but they can not make it to a formal club for whatever the reason. Their motivation I believe would have to be at an all time high.

A lot of clubs I've seen minus the instruction in the drills consist of lower level guys experiencing different things in practice and creating a game that works for them. The instructor gives you a layout and then you apply. If it was centered exclusively around the instruction then everyone in the gym would grapple the same---cookie cutter. Which we probably all know they do not. Any thoughts? Thanks for you input.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

If you have grappling experience it's a completely different situation.

Do you believe guys without formal training can not develop an effective, and respectable game unless they belong to an established gym or academy? I have seen strikers do it plenty of times. They'll work conditioning, get in spar, determine what they liked and didn't, work on that in drilling, get in spar again.

From the striking perspective if the formal instruction was the deciding factor then the people at the boxing classes would be the stand outs. They usually have very qualified instructors. The people who have famous champion fathers would be the stand outs. Sugar Shane Mosley Jr. is not his father. Neither is Muhammad Ali's grandson like him (still young --maybe still growing).

The guys I've seen who are stand outs put the work in. Most of the times they don't come from fancy programs. Roberto Duran came out of poverty fighting in the slums. He learned to fight based on experience.

Back to grappling for the sake of the forum, do you think someone with the right motivation can learn and develop a respectable game? I know gym owners, and the like will say no. However, they also have overhead costs, and want to make a living as well. Some of them are even just ordering online products, viewing them then putting them out to their students as "instruction", that is a whole other discussion. Do you have any thoughts? Thanks.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Considering all styles of martial arts came from experimentation and innovation, how important do you believe it is to train at an actual gym with an established curriculum?

Do you believe a group of neighborhood friends who grappled each other could develop their own practice and establish a style that may not be a replica of formal styles but effective in its own right nonetheless?

Do you think it is worth the charge of a monthly membership to practice a formal style

OR

Do you think everyone has the potential to develop an effective skillset if they put in the training hours, even if it isn't under the roof of an established gym?

You can get decent set of skills learning via video, you will be lacking the most improta thing though, a variarity of training partners... you won’t become a world beater but yes, you can learn grappling that way. If you don’t have access to any gym close to your house, then I see no reason why not go for it.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Do you believe guys without formal training can not develop an effective, and respectable game unless they belong to an established gym or academy? I have seen strikers do it plenty of times. They'll work conditioning, get in spar, determine what they liked and didn't, work on that in drilling, get in spar again.

From the striking perspective if the formal instruction was the deciding factor then the people at the boxing classes would be the stand outs. They usually have very qualified instructors. The people who have famous champion fathers would be the stand outs. Sugar Shane Mosley Jr. is not his father. Neither is Muhammad Ali's grandson like him (still young --maybe still growing).

The guys I've seen who are stand outs put the work in. Most of the times they don't come from fancy programs. Roberto Duran came out of poverty fighting in the slums. He learned to fight based on experience.

Back to grappling for the sake of the forum, do you think someone with the right motivation can learn and develop a respectable game? I know gym owners, and the like will say no. However, they also have overhead costs, and want to make a living as well. Some of them are even just ordering online products, viewing them then putting them out to their students as "instruction", that is a whole other discussion. Do you have any thoughts? Thanks.

Grappling and striking are way different, again, you could develop decent skills, the key word is “decent”

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

You can get decent set of skills learning via video, you will be lacking the most improta thing though, a variarity of training partners... you won’t become a world beater but yes, you can learn grappling that way. If you have access to any gym close to your house, then I see no reason why not go for it.

A lot of guys who wish to grapple, have all the qualities and work ethic that I know, can not. They'll have a challenge match just as a friendly go and I'll make the suggestion, why don't you go check out the gym, you have good natural instincts? We'll get to talking and they'll hear the price, and can't do it. A lot of them are teenagers or just don't have that money to spare on a month to month.

Seeing them continue to have gos at each other I've noticed they're improving. One guy could never take the back standing, and the last I saw him he did it 3 times. So yeah, ideally a gym, but for those who can't I think they can still benefit. Just train. lol

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Grappling and striking are way different, again, you could develop decent skills, the key word is “decent”

Yeah, bad grappling is bad grappling. Bad striking is bad striking. Personally I thought grappling came more naturally than striking. Keyword personally. The reason being is that because even though I may make a mistake I am still in range when grappling. I can secure an arm, a leg, the back, the head in some type of way where I can work off of that.

If I'm striking and I miss I'm open for counter. If you don't know how to properly recover or duck out, or put your hands back where they belong you can get floored. Uneducated striking can build a ton of bad habits. However, with both grappling and striking I think if someone were to at least show you the basics you can learn to work off of that.

I agree with you on the decent part. How many street ballers make it to the league? I think maybe one, and I don't know if he played in school at all. They'll clean house at the local courts but if the goal is to become high level you'll need a team at some point in any sport. I agree. Thanks for your input.

 

[yetanother]

you will be lacking the most improta thing though, a variarity of training partners... .

Quality of training partners matters a lot. You can improve even if all you have is one good training partner/ technique from world champions from the internet and a mat space. Unskilled and low skilled people move differently so you can't learn a lot of things with them.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Quality of training partners matters a lot. You can improve even if all you have is one good training partner/ technique from world champions from the internet and a mat space. Unskilled and low skilled people move differently so you can't learn a lot of things with them.

That will be lacking too... they are all gong to be noobs with no grappling experience

 

[Newave]

Do you believe guys without formal training can not develop an effective, and respectable game unless they belong to an established gym or academy? I have seen strikers do it plenty of times. They'll work conditioning, get in spar, determine what they liked and didn't, work on that in drilling, get in spar again.

From the striking perspective if the formal instruction was the deciding factor then the people at the boxing classes would be the stand outs. They usually have very qualified instructors. The people who have famous champion fathers would be the stand outs. Sugar Shane Mosley Jr. is not his father. Neither is Muhammad Ali's grandson like him (still young --maybe still growing).

The guys I've seen who are stand outs put the work in. Most of the times they don't come from fancy programs. Roberto Duran came out of poverty fighting in the slums. He learned to fight based on experience.

Back to grappling for the sake of the forum, do you think someone with the right motivation can learn and develop a respectable game? I know gym owners, and the like will say no. However, they also have overhead costs, and want to make a living as well. Some of them are even just ordering online products, viewing them then putting them out to their students as "instruction", that is a whole other discussion. Do you have any thoughts? Thanks.

You’re going to make this debate confusing because you are deviating from the topic. The op was about training with a group of friends rather than at a real gym, but now you are talking about the quality of gym when you bring up boxers and their backgrounds. Durán didn’t become a world champ by boxing with his friends. Specifically from his wiki page “He began sparring with experienced boxers at the Neco de La Guardia gymnasium when he was only eight years old.” He eventually trained under Ray Arcel. Most high level athletes in every sport leave their local gym gym or team at a certain point and start training with a coach that is known for producing pros.

I do think someone can become a decent player on their own, but not a high level competitor. I think for high level competition the biggest benefit of a gym is having regular high level guys to spar with.