Kosen judo

[JiuJitsuMan]

The national judo team is relocating to a new training center, therefore Kosen judo is being added to fill in the void. Kosen judo class is 80% ground, and 20% standing up. Whereas the normal judo class, its 80% tachiwaza, 20% newaza. Don't pay attention too much to the ad, its not well designed. There also always been some bjj players in the judo class as some can't afford anymore the bjj membership

 

[Einarr]

The national judo team is relocating to a new training center, therefore Kosen judo is being added to fill in the void. Kosen judo class is 80% ground, and 20% standing up. Whereas the normal judo class, its 80% tachiwaza, 20% newaza. Don't pay attention too much to the ad, its not well designed. There also always been some bjj players in the judo class as some can't afford anymore the bjj membership

The Japanese national team?

 

[Oleg Raktatov]

Canadian

 

[Mr. Sandman]

The national judo team is relocating to a new training center, therefore Kosen judo is being added to fill in the void. Kosen judo class is 80% ground, and 20% standing up. Whereas the normal judo class, its 80% tachiwaza, 20% newaza. Don't pay attention too much to the ad, its not well designed. There also always been some bjj players in the judo class as some can't afford anymore the bjj membership

Good to hear. That ad should still be.. tweaked quite a bit.

 

[Gorbag]

Here a video on Kosen style Judo that seem legit:

 

[QingTian]

Great video featuring Kimura, the guy that destroyed Helio Gracies arm back in the fifties! But this is just classic Kodokan Judo, calling it

 

[Ryo]

I would like to ressurect this thread on the grounds that, there are several true Kosen guys that are using the term Kosen Judo in the same manner. I think its quite appropriate. Koji Komuro is one of the most respected ground fighting experts in Judo and one of the most sought after newaza teachers. He comes directly from Kanae Hirata. He teaches at Judo and BJJ seminars around the world under the same moniker: Kosen Judo. Who could argue with him?

 

[Bluesbreaker]

The term "kosen judo" often makes me feel weird. I'm not sure whether it can only be referred to as a ruleset, or a style of its own. Kind of like points BJJ and sub only..?

My understanding was:
Under the school/kosen judo system, competitions are team-based. You could be paired up with anyone, regardless off skill (or size?).

The guard pulling and focus on newaza is a way for the lesser competitors to avoid getting thrown for ippon and possibly work to a draw, or try their chances on the ground. So, their team would hopefully avoid giving away points.

Can anyone confirm or deny this? Does anyone really know the answer?

 

[lechien]

Kosen judo is real and not just a competition format for uni kids.

There is like at 2 least 2 books of kosen judo in the dojo showing techniques. But they are written in Japanese.

There are lot of senseis that would claims to do kosen judo.

They are the products of a specific era.

From what I heard:

You can go to Kyoto university which is run by a kosen judo sensei.

They all pull guard and roll around for the entire training.

My judo club states on their website that they fuse kosen judo with contemporary Olympic judo. They also put their lineage which consists of kosen judo grand masters.

 

[lechien]

The team challenge is a lot of fun.

But I heard that they so many variation of it.

Actually Japanese university judo team still does team challenge, I think.

 

[miscend]

Kosen judo is real and not just a competition format for uni kids.

There is like at 2 least 2 books of kosen judo in the dojo showing techniques. But they are written in Japanese.

There are lot of senseis that would claims to do kosen judo.

They are the products of a specific era.

From what I heard:

You can go to Kyoto university which is run by a kosen judo sensei.

They all pull guard and roll around for the entire training.

My judo club states on their website that they fuse kosen judo with contemporary Olympic judo. They also put their lineage which consists of kosen judo grand masters.

This goes against all what we know about Kosen Judo. That Kosen Judo is the Japanese University ruleset and format for Judo, that is it still Judo and not a separate art. Do you have source?

 

[lechien]

This goes against all what we know about Kosen Judo. That Kosen Judo is the Japanese University ruleset and format for Judo, that is it still Judo and not a separate art. Do you have source?

Source.

What about a 7th degree kodokan black belt that would laughs at out at my question.

Yes, kosen judo is still judo but it is way different the Olympic judo that we know and commonly taught in dojo's.

 

[Ryo]

This goes against all what we know about Kosen Judo. That Kosen Judo is the Japanese University ruleset and format for Judo, that is it still Judo and not a separate art. Do you have source?

Dude, think about it. Why is BJJ a different style than Olympic Judo? What's the fundamental reason? Rules, plain and simple. Techniques and strategies are built around rules of the game you play. It's the same with Kosen Judo. They play under an almost opposite ruleset. So if somebody trains and competes exclusively under Kosen ruleset, ofcourse his style is going to be much different than most Judoka because most train exclusively for Olympic Judo competition. Hell, even Isao Okanos Judo is almost a completely different style than what's taught today, because the rules were much different back then.

Kosen

They don't care too much about throws
Pull guard
Leg grabs allowed
Go until submission or pin basically

Ofcourse this will produce much different strategies of competing. It is a different style.
Again, I will will be emphasize my earlier point. If Judoka like Kimura, Kanae Hirata or Koji Komuro put Kosen in its own category, how is that not sourced enough? Who could argue with such legitimite, respected Judoka? At the Newaza Kenkyukai dojo in Tokyo, Hirata taught until he died in 1998. It's still there. They call it Kosen Judo.

 

[miscend]

Kosen Judo is a ruleset variation of Judo competition. It is not a different style or martial art. If you have a black belt in Kodokan Judo it is still recognised in Kosen Judo and vice versa. And all the techniques are the same in both. Guard pulling etc etc is all a part of Judo even if not allowed under Olympic rules. In fact theres lots of official Kodokan Judo techniques which aren’t allowed under current rules, but it is all still Judo. Judo does not end at the Olympic ruleset.

Famous Judoka like Masahiko Kimura competed under both rule sets. To them it was all just Judo.

https://www.bjjee.com/articles/why-do-kosen-judo-players-insist-on-guard-pulling/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosen_judo

 

[Ryo]

I suppose you didn't read what I wrote. Rules make styles of combat sports. Thats a fact. It is a different style. I didn't say it was not Judo, but it is distinctive enough from what is modern day Judo to be called a different style. It has a different objective.

 

[miscend]

I suppose you didn't read what I wrote. Rules make styles of combat sports. Thats a fact. It is a different style. I didn't say it was not Judo, but it is distinctive enough from what is modern day Judo to be called a different style. It has a different objective.

You didn’t read what I wrote. Your problem is that you think Judo is rigidly defined by the Olympic ruleset. Have a look at the Judo kata forms. That’s your record of the many official techniques taught in Judo which aren’t allowed under the Olympic ruleset. Which is why you have variations like the University ruleset for competition. Officially it is all Judo and the belts are recognised. All the techniques in Kosen Judo are in Kodokan Judo.

Judo isn’t merely a combat sport it is also a martial art. In all martial arts, the competitive aspect will have rules which restrict certain techniques. But these are just rulesets they don’t define the actual martial art. In Kyokushin competition for example you cannot strike to the head. But that doesn’t mean that if you fight in K1 (or a variation of the Kyokushin ruleset that has head strikes), that you are suddenly practicing a different style. It is still Kyokushin just under a different ruleset.

 

[Ryo]

You didn’t read what I wrote. Your problem is that you think Judo is rigidly defined by the Olympic ruleset. Have a look at the Judo kata forms. That’s your record of the many official techniques taught in Judo which aren’t allowed under the Olympic ruleset. Which is why you have variations like the University ruleset for competition. Officially it is all Judo and the belts are recognised. All the techniques in Kosen Judo are in Kodokan Judo.

Judo isn’t merely a combat sport it is also a martial art. In all martial arts, the competitive aspect will have rules which restrict certain techniques. But these are just rulesets they don’t define the actual martial art. In Kyokushin competition for example you cannot strike to the head. But that doesn’t mean that if you fight in K1 (or a variation of the Kyokushin ruleset that has head strikes), that you are suddenly practicing a different style. It is still Kyokushin just under a different ruleset.

What you are saying is meaningless. 90 percent of Judo clubs don't practice the way the Kosen clubs in Tokyo or Kyoto practice. It's like saying because leglocks are in Judo Kata or were used 100 years ago that makes then apart of Judo. Er... OK but that means nothing in reality. 99 percent of Judoka do not practice them or know how to use them. Most clubs that practice very little Newaza in comparison to tachiwaza don't know how to fight effectively in newaza to a high degree. Some clubs practice alot of newaza so ofcoursd will put out guys who are good on the ground. But again, thats the minority.
It doesn't matter about Kodokan VS Kosen in regards to belts or nonsense like this. Kosen is not an organization or governing body. There is no Kosen Judo BB. That's not what anybody is saying. But if you get a BB from Koji Komuro or Kanae Hirata, you can guarantee that your style will be distinctive from most Judoka who train of Olympic Judo. Your ground game will look different. Guaranteed.

Also, you can't name one person from Kyokushin who stepped into the ring in
K-1 that didn't also train in Boxing for their hands. They all did. You don't go to a KK guy to learn to fight with your hands in a ring with boxing gloves. Get real.

 

[lechien]

The kosen judo masters are like a nomad group of an MC. .
.they are a group within the group.

They do their own things but still go under the kodokan.

They are the rebels with a cause.

Keep their art and techniques alive.

The kosen judo club I train does 50 % newaza and 50% tachiwaza.

I don't really want to too deep into it but they can easily claim lineage to 3 masters of kosen judo from Japan: kimura mitsuko (8th Dan), Ebii Goichi (9th Dan), current living sensei in Japan Isao Okano from Ryuzukei University Ibargagi.

It is not like they just want to sell themselves as the cool kids that specialise in newaza hoping to ride the wave of Bjj popularity. The club has been kosen judo since 1960.