Korean Fighter looking sharp at Sambo Worlds

[Daniel Fox]

I cant argue with that, for MMA purposes and for picking up on Bjj and submission grappling, folkstyle is great. But I think the strength and muscle groups a freestyler would develop when trying to turn their opponent on the mat with a gut wrench or something would also translate nicely to ground control and ground work in MMA. We just have not seen too many fighters in MMA with strictly a freestyle background and the ones that do come from strictly freestyle either don't work the top game much or have been pretty friggin good on top. Because as Im sure you know, all of the Americans with legit freestyle chops who have entered MMA have also had a ton of folkstyle experience. So for pure freestyle guys we would have to look at the women like Sara McMann and Miesha Tate (although Ive heard she wrestled on the boys team) and then guys like Yoel Romero. They are the only pure freestylers I can think of. Hennry Cejudo is close but he wrestled folkstyle in high School, Alexis vila doesn't count either because he coached in the NCAA at Michigan State and also won a bunch of open folkstyle tournaments, including midlands. Guys like Babalu would have only freestyle experience but he also trained a ton in Bjj so he developed his ground control there. Bilyal makhov would have been a good study but he seems to have backed out of his MMA plans. Even guys like Arjan Bhullar would count as purely freestyle bc he wrestled for Simon Frasser. There are just so very few examples of a pure freestyle wrestler in MMA.

All good points!

 

[dsdoubled]

I agree with 100% of what you are saying, but I was talking about the submission aspect of the grappling, not the take downs. I actually was coached by Masaaki Hatta. To me the Japanese style of Freestyle wrestling is very American influenced. Masaaki's ( you may have heard of his brother too, Tadaaki Hatta) father toured the United States with a Japanese Judo team, they had a match with the Oklahoma State Wrestling team, and were beaten ( to be fair the wrestlers were not wearing gis). The elder Hatta stayed in Oklahoma to learn wrestling, and brought it back to Japan. This is also why there was a number of Japanese wrestlers wrestling for Oklahoma State during the 1960's (Masaaki. Tadaaki, Yojiro Uetake). To me the Japanese style is more of a shooting style (American) compared to a European influenced style that is more upright. I attribute this to the Oklahoma connection.

Awesome post. I did not know that about the OK wrestlers vs Japanese judo matches. That is very cool. An interesting addition to this discussion is Kid Yamamoto. Grew up wrestling in Japan, comes to the USA for High School and wins multiple state championships in Arizona. Im not sure why he didn't continue to wrestle in the USA but Im sure he could've done well in either japan or the States if he focused on wrestling and not MMA.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

We never talked about this, but he ended up winning:

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

The sambo federation of Japan is the first sambo federation registered in the world (even before the Soviets made one).
Japanese grappling styles are very well connected with both sambo and wrestling. Scoring is usually a mixture, but considering submissions are involved, def a bit more on the side of sambo.
Sambo is known to many random people in Japan- before BJJ made it to major MMA orgs, majority of famous grapplers there were with sambo background.
I have personally witnessed Aoki winning a sambo nationals in Tokyo, when he was still purple belt in BJJ.
Also, there use to be a great sambo team, called SK Absolute in central Tokyo, where Imanari, Aoki, Gono, Hasegawa and bunch of combat wrestling guys use to train together, doubling with sambo sometimes.
I use to train there up until the building got sold to a pro wrestling company and the team had to change location, but unfortunately, bevause of the size of it, they couldnt and split into several smaller teams.

 

[Sano]

Sambo is pretty awesome

We never talked about this, but he ended up winning:

His takedown defense and reversals are nuts!

 

[MadSquabbles500]

UFC champ or at least serious contender immediately. We really should see more crossovers from combat sambo. There is no money in it.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Sambo is pretty awesome


His takedown defense and reversals are nuts!

I love how he hooks the leg of his opponent to stay up, so smart. I wish I could do that rather than just flail.

 

[dsdoubled]

The sambo federation of Japan is the first sambo federation registered in the world (even before the Soviets made one).
Japanese grappling styles are very well connected with both sambo and wrestling. Scoring is usually a mixture, but considering submissions are involved, def a bit more on the side of sambo.
Sambo is known to many random people in Japan- before BJJ made it to major MMA orgs, majority of famous grapplers there were with sambo background.
I have personally witnessed Aoki winning a sambo nationals in Tokyo, when he was still purple belt in BJJ.
Also, there use to be a great sambo team, called SK Absolute in central Tokyo, where Imanari, Aoki, Gono, Hasegawa and bunch of combat wrestling guys use to train together, doubling with sambo sometimes.
I use to train there up until the building got sold to a pro wrestling company and the team had to change location, but unfortunately, bevause of the size of it, they couldnt and split into several smaller teams.

I'm seriously thinking about writing a long article or a series of articles exploring the connections between various styles of wrestling, sambo, judo, combat wrestling, mma, etc. Complete with a diagram showing how each fighter connects to each discipline.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I'm seriously thinking about writing a long article or a series of articles exploring the connections between various styles of wrestling, sambo, judo, combat wrestling, mma, etc. Complete with a diagram showing how each fighter connects to each discipline.

I think its a good idea, although it will take A LOT of time.

Which fighters are you talking about?
In Japan, there were specific teams involved in all the events.

The above mentioned SK Absolute (where I use to train) was into sambo, combat wrestling, Pancrase, Shooto and some other mma and pro wrestling promotions, including PRIDE, RINGS and etc.

Kiguchi Dojo was a wrestling based gym, with athletes competing in combat wrestling, sambo, all major mma organizations (Gomi, Rumina Sato and Sakurai Hayato are the most famous representatives).

Takada Dojo was where Sakuraba and his crew was training and they were into pro wrestling and big mma promotions (PRIDE was mainly a product of pro wrestling circles, which is obvious by the production style).
I believe the guy behind Polaris and Scramble brand use to train there, while living in Japan.

There were also many small teams, like the one led by Taka Kuno (Antonio Inoki's bodyguard) who is a great grappler and his crew was mainly doing pro wrestling and small mma promotion shows. Currently they also participate in UWW grappling and combat wrestling.

All of those teams are from the times before BJJ became mainstream.

 

[dsdoubled]

I think its a good idea, although it will take A LOT of time.

Which fighters are you talking about?
In Japan, there were specific teams involved in all the events.

The above mentioned SK Absolute (where I use to train) was into sambo, combat wrestling, Pancrase, Shooto and some other mma and pro wrestling promotions, including PRIDE, RINGS and etc.

Kiguchi Dojo was a wrestling based gym, with athletes competing in combat wrestling, sambo, all major mma organizations (Gomi, Rumina Sato and Sakurai Hayato are the most famous representatives).

Takada Dojo was where Sakuraba and his crew was training and they were into pro wrestling and big mma promotions (PRIDE was mainly a product of pro wrestling circles, which is obvious by the production style).
I believe the guy behind Polaris and Scramble brand use to train there, while living in Japan.

There were also many small teams, like the one led by Taka Kuno (Antonio Inoki's bodyguard) who is a great grappler and his crew was mainly doing pro wrestling and small mma promotion shows. Currently they also participate in UWW grappling and combat wrestling.

All of those teams are from the times before BJJ became mainstream.

Really a ton of fighters I find interesting. Since you mentioned Japan, take Kid Yamamoto for example. Big time High School wrestler. Wins multiple state championships in the US and makes a few cadet world teams for Japan. Connected to big time wrestlers in the States (Townsend Saunders for example) and in Japan. But then he was obviously deeply plugged into the MMA scene and trained with Enson Inoue as well. Did he participate in any other grappling styles in Japan? Or Genki Sudo. I heard he wrestled in some tournaments in California while also studying BJJ. He must've had a ton of experience in other styles in Japan.

 

[James Baller]

Really a ton of fighters I find interesting. Since you mentioned Japan, take Kid Yamamoto for example. Big time High School wrestler. Wins multiple state championships in the US and makes a few cadet world teams for Japan. Connected to big time wrestlers in the States (Townsend Saunders for example) and in Japan. But then he was obviously deeply plugged into the MMA scene and trained with Enson Inoue as well. Did he participate in any other grappling styles in Japan? Or Genki Sudo. I heard he wrestled in some tournaments in California while also studying BJJ. He must've had a ton of experience in other styles in Japan.

Japan, in other styles and experience, studies BJJ. Some tournaments (like in Caliornia for example) he wrestled more (Towsend Saunders is a good example). And also Japan.

But did he participate in any other grappling styles in Japan?

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Really a ton of fighters I find interesting. Since you mentioned Japan, take Kid Yamamoto for example. Big time High School wrestler. Wins multiple state championships in the US and makes a few cadet world teams for Japan. Connected to big time wrestlers in the States (Townsend Saunders for example) and in Japan. But then he was obviously deeply plugged into the MMA scene and trained with Enson Inoue as well. Did he participate in any other grappling styles in Japan? Or Genki Sudo. I heard he wrestled in some tournaments in California while also studying BJJ. He must've had a ton of experience in other styles in Japan.

Im quite sure Genski Sudo have spent some time training in Kiguchi dojo:
https://goo.gl/images/zfWNhC

Although, Yamamoto is coming from a wrestling family and I havent heard him competing in anything else but wrestling and mma.

 

[dsdoubled]

Im quite sure Genski Sudo have spent some time training in Kiguchi dojo:
https://goo.gl/images/zfWNhC

Although, Yamamoto is coming from a wrestling family and I havent heard him competing in anything else but wrestling and mma.

Its funny I did a quick search nd found this old thread about Kid Yamamoto competing in Bjj as a white belt.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/kid-yamamoto-to-compete-in-bjj.1058977/page-2

On a somewhat related note, you are into Combat Wrestling, correct? Do you happen to know how the rules differ from other formats like FILA/UWW Grappling and the "sombo" tournaments held by USA Wrestling and FILA. Sombo enjoyed participation from quite a few high level wrestlers/grapplers during the times it was housed by FILA/UWW. I was looking through old results and in 2007 for example, there was a Sombo World Championships that featured the USA, Japan, France, Bulgaria, Russian, Turkey, etc. The Japanese competitors were Norimiko Cemali and Norijuki Kitauora.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Its funny I did a quick search nd found this old thread about Kid Yamamoto competing in Bjj as a white belt.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/kid-yamamoto-to-compete-in-bjj.1058977/page-2

On a somewhat related note, you are into Combat Wrestling, correct? Do you happen to know how the rules differ from other formats like FILA/UWW Grappling and the "sombo" tournaments held by USA Wrestling and FILA. Sombo enjoyed participation from quite a few high level wrestlers/grapplers during the times it was housed by FILA/UWW. I was looking through old results and in 2007 for example, there was a Sombo World Championships that featured the USA, Japan, France, Bulgaria, Russian, Turkey, etc. The Japanese competitors were Norimiko Cemali and Norijuki Kitauora.

Correct.
The sambo tournaments you are refering to, are during the split in FIAS (the sambo global federation), I believe.
There were championships around that time, but athletes from the traditionally strong sambo countries did not participate.

As for rule sets- original combat wrestling rule set was very close to the one I established for FICW (the International Combat Wrestling Federation). Although, over the years, there were a lot of changes in Japan, adopting rules, that brought questionable results and in the end a lot of people stop competing.

When I decided to form the FICW, the main objective was to bring a fair platform to all grappling styles to showcase their own style strengths. Something like K1 of grappling. And I think its obvious that it succeeded, if one looks at the championships results- the medalists backgrounds vary from Olympic wrestling to BJJ, sambo, catch wrestling, judo...

Main difference with other styles is that CW focuses on dynamic play, no stalling, constant action, with high reward for throws, positional pins and submissions.
It is the only grappling competition out there, banning the closed guard and the difference with other competitions is obvious, if you watch the videos from the international events.

 

[asian-glow]

I'm seriously thinking about writing a long article or a series of articles exploring the connections between various styles of wrestling, sambo, judo, combat wrestling, mma, etc. Complete with a diagram showing how each fighter connects to each discipline.

I'm sure a number of frequenters, including myself, would be interested in such a write up. I am most familiar with Gracie history, but even that is pretty sparse and to be fair, most likely one sided. Robert Drysdale mentioned that he was working on a documentary that offered a more holistic perspective on BJJ development in Brazil, even talking about people from the Fadda lineage, which is strangely rarely ever discussed.

I am only just now reading up stuff on the history of other styles and I'm sure would find your contributions in this regard to be very educational.

 

[dsdoubled]

I'm sure a number of frequenters, including myself, would be interested in such a write up. I am most familiar with Gracie history, but even that is pretty sparse and to be fair, most likely one sided. Robert Drysdale mentioned that he was working on a documentary that offered a more holistic perspective on BJJ development in Brazil, even talking about people from the Fadda lineage, which is strangely rarely ever discussed.

I am only just now reading up stuff on the history of other styles and I'm sure would find your contributions in this regard to be very educational.

The Gracie family is a fantastic element of this discussion of how different fighters crossed over and are connected to different styles of grappling. You had Rickson, the Machados, and a few of the other big name Gracies from that time that were known to frequent sambo tournaments. And later on more recently there was Gregore, Igor, and Rolles who wrestled a bunch of freestyle matches in 2014-2016 in an attempt to qualify to wrestle at the Rio Olympics and they did surprisingly well for Bjjers. There is also the fact that Rener Gracie was apparently a very good California High School wrestler and had a spot on a Division I wrestling team at Stanford but he chose not to take it. This would be a major undertaking to write up what we are talking about, maybe the diagram is a good place to start. So many grapplers have competed with and under multiple disciplines/rule sets.

 

[chubbman]

God damn there’s some great posts in this thread.

Thanks for the interesting read everyone