Khabib and Kevin Lee

[biscuitsbrah]

These guys are great, strong grapplers for mma. And a lot of their positioning is solely with the intent of doing as much damage as possible while on top.

But do you think instead of head hunting while they clearly have their opponent compromised, they could benefit from trying to force a submission instead? Obviously both will take the sub if presented with one i.e. opponent gives up the back. But what about a bjj or submission grappling approach that someone like Mighty Mouse uses in the later rounds? Threatening head and arm chokes, forcing kimuras and straight arm locks, and hunting armbars?

Do you think this would improve their game after the first round where they just previously beat the shit out of their opponent? Or do you think DJ only relies on these tactics because of the strength to bodyweight ratio of the flyweight division, making simultaneous effective gnp and control extremely hard to do? (Besides the odd crucifix here and there)

 

[skaleton]

I think they are taking position before submission to an extreme and I like it. I think a big part of positional jiujitsu that gets ignored is maintaining good positions while being able to inflict damage. A tight side control is good control but not good for dealing damage.

If I have mount or knee on belly I try to maintain those positions with high posture and not allowing opponent to get grips. This allows me to strike if I wanted to, but rarely leaves me in a position to finish an arm triangle. Kimora’s and americanas I play with just to get the arms moving so that I can open them up. I see no reason to go for an arm bar from mount just because the guy on bottom gives it to me. I’d rather take the wrist and pin it to the opposite side of their head leaving one of my arms free both of theirs on one side of their body and making my mount even harder to escape while punches are easier to land.

Essentially why give up mount for an 80% sub when they’ve already spent two minutes proving they can’t escape your mount and You’ve spent two minutes exhausting them and throwing bombs into their skull. Maybe start sub hunting halfway through the third round if you’re already up on rounds.

 

[JagRoss]

I think the rounds aspect of the game really deincentivises slow positional submission hunting.
Round is five minutes.

Let's say you get the guy down to the ground in 1-2 minutes.
If you want to get a submission you have to:
1. Pass
2. Force an opening
3. Lock up the submission

Vs

Punch the guy for 3 minutes.

If you're on the guys back trying to choke him, and he's stalling you out by grabbing your gloves—you aren't doing damage.
He's not getting tired.

 

[MilesP4P]

I really like the direction we are seeing these guys take. They are more concerned about GnP over traditional submissions. While I do think there can be a healthy balance (which is what I aim for in my style) it is nice to see casual fans starting to enjoy the ground game with all these GnP based fighters.

 

[TheGZA]

it is nice to see casual fans starting to enjoy the ground game with all these GnP based fighters.

They don't give a shit. Kevin Lee beat Barboza into a living death last night, and they booed him like the Iron Sheik.

 

[freakroor]

the willingness to maintain control at all times makes sense from a martial arts standpoint. in a real fight, without unified mma rules, there is so much opportunity to inflict damage from the top - with knees to the head from side control or north-south plus soccer kicks and downward elbows - that it becomes unnecessary to attempt a submission unless it is offered on a silver platter



top control is underrated by most ppl, khabibs dominance is proving this.

 

[Uchi Mata]

These guys are great, strong grapplers for mma. And a lot of their positioning is solely with the intent of doing as much damage as possible while on top.

But do you think instead of head hunting while they clearly have their opponent compromised, they could benefit from trying to force a submission instead? Obviously both will take the sub if presented with one i.e. opponent gives up the back. But what about a bjj or submission grappling approach that someone like Mighty Mouse uses in the later rounds? Threatening head and arm chokes, forcing kimuras and straight arm locks, and hunting armbars?

Do you think this would improve their game after the first round where they just previously beat the shit out of their opponent? Or do you think DJ only relies on these tactics because of the strength to bodyweight ratio of the flyweight division, making simultaneous effective gnp and control extremely hard to do? (Besides the odd crucifix here and there)

It's a style choice, and while I prefer subs from an aesthetic sense the logic of doing damage first is sound. Got to win those rounds, and control with sub threats doesn't win rounds as reliably as control with damage. I think if you're on top for 3 or 4 minutes of the round it would make sense to hunt the sub once you've convincingly demonstrated dominance, but it's clearly not necessary for winning the fight.

I'll add too that if you're a good grappler, it's a lot easier to find chances to reverse someone once they start hunting subs that it is when they're just sitting on top punching you. I had the luxury recently of being one of the main grappling training partners for a very experienced UFC fighter during his last camp, and while I was able to do fine when we were just submission grappling once we started punching his top control really shut down large segments of my counter offense from the bottom (and I, even as an inexperienced ground striker, was able to keep him on his back much more effectively when I just played a heavy control and GnP game and not hunting subs or even the pass all that much).

 

[Cappy Goodtime]

The ruthless GnP was what turned Edson into such a zombie, I don't see why he would change things up and give Edson a chance to pull everything together.

 

[Orion]

Just speaking in theory for a second, if I were a top UFC fighter and had a ground based style, I would want to focus on exhausting my opponent as fast as possible from a cardio standpoint and a mental. So with that said, concussive damage is going to be my fastest route to scrambling the brains of my opponent and inducing panic and/or having him make bad decisions while the damage accumulates.

While a submission is great, it's equally great to smash you through the floor for 3-5 rounds and ensure victory rather than giving any scramble options in transition, and especially after the first round or so when guys get really sweaty (not to mention top tier athletes capable of turning the tides with the smallest opening).

 

[Zankou]

Just speaking in theory for a second, if I were a top UFC fighter and had a ground based style, I would want to focus on exhausting my opponent as fast as possible from a cardio standpoint and a mental. So with that said, concussive damage is going to be my fastest route to scrambling the brains of my opponent and inducing panic and/or having him make bad decisions while the damage accumulates.

While a submission is great, it's equally great to smash you through the floor for 3-5 rounds and ensure victory rather than giving any scramble options in transition, and especially after the first round or so when guys get really sweaty (not to mention top tier athletes capable of turning the tides with the smallest opening).

Pretty much this. Going for submission takes more energy than defending it. For top control G&P, it’s the reverse, if you can make your opponent carry your weight for two rounds they will be a feeble shell of a fighter. It just sucks all the energy and fight out of you to try to defend that ride.

 

[Gabicho]

Another important point is that when you're in the bottom, sometimes the only opportunity to escape presents when you purposely give a submission opportunity (bait) so that the guy on the top will go for it.
Khabib is too good to be tricked... and he will just keep scrambling your brain.

 

[dudeguyman]

Another important point is that when you're in the bottom, sometimes the only opportunity to escape presents when you purposely give a submission opportunity (bait) so that the guy on the top will go for it.

Thanks.

 

[The Half Blood Prince]

These guys are great, strong grapplers for mma. And a lot of their positioning is solely with the intent of doing as much damage as possible while on top.

But do you think instead of head hunting while they clearly have their opponent compromised, they could benefit from trying to force a submission instead? Obviously both will take the sub if presented with one i.e. opponent gives up the back. But what about a bjj or submission grappling approach that someone like Mighty Mouse uses in the later rounds? Threatening head and arm chokes, forcing kimuras and straight arm locks, and hunting armbars?

Do you think this would improve their game after the first round where they just previously beat the shit out of their opponent? Or do you think DJ only relies on these tactics because of the strength to bodyweight ratio of the flyweight division, making simultaneous effective gnp and control extremely hard to do? (Besides the odd crucifix here and there)

Well we saw Khabib take a different approach to the Laqinta fight where he instead of riding he took the back and went for submissions. You can clearly see that in that apporach going for the submission just stalled the fight and as a result Khabib wasnt able to land the normal amount of damage he does. It just takes way to long to go for a submission and it doesnt suit the game since there is a time limit. Fighters can easily stall you out and if u survive a round full of submission attempts u will likley be nearok in the next round where as if u somehow survive a round of constant ground and pound, then in the next round your nearly done and your body and ability will be compromised

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Damn gloves all I have to say.

 

[mattemate]

Kevin Lee will die. M

 

[mataleaos]

It's a style choice, and while I prefer subs from an aesthetic sense the logic of doing damage first is sound. Got to win those rounds, and control with sub threats doesn't win rounds as reliably as control with damage. I think if you're on top for 3 or 4 minutes of the round it would make sense to hunt the sub once you've convincingly demonstrated dominance, but it's clearly not necessary for winning the fight.

I'll add too that if you're a good grappler, it's a lot easier to find chances to reverse someone once they start hunting subs that it is when they're just sitting on top punching you. I had the luxury recently of being one of the main grappling training partners for a very experienced UFC fighter during his last camp, and while I was able to do fine when we were just submission grappling once we started punching his top control really shut down large segments of my counter offense from the bottom (and I, even as an inexperienced ground striker, was able to keep him on his back much more effectively when I just played a heavy control and GnP game and not hunting subs or even the pass all that much).

Good post.

Chris Weidman when he first came out sort of hung out on top and didn't throw a ton of strikes, and head-hunted a lot. The fights with Tom Lawlor and Mark Munoz come to mind. Jon Jones too in his fights with Jake O'Brien and Ryan Bader. Both of these guys switched into more strike heavy offense from the top, and they still got some strangles from the top later in their careers (Weidman as recently as last year I think) but I thought it was probably a smart decision that they both started striking more from the top instead of just sub hunting.

 

[mataleaos]

Well we saw Khabib take a different approach to the Laqinta fight where he instead of riding he took the back and went for submissions. You can clearly see that in that apporach going for the submission just stalled the fight and as a result Khabib wasnt able to land the normal amount of damage he does. It just takes way to long to go for a submission and it doesnt suit the game since there is a time limit. Fighters can easily stall you out and if u survive a round full of submission attempts u will likley be nearok in the next round where as if u somehow survive a round of constant ground and pound, then in the next round your nearly done and your body and ability will be compromised

I am going to sound stupid for criticizing Khabib but this is two fights now where I have seen him pass up a handful of fairly easy kata gatame style classic arm triangles in favor of trying to get the back and the rear naked choke. In his last fight with Iaquinta there were 2 occasions where Iaquinta was basically fully inside of an arm triangle and all Khabib needed to do was sprawl out but Khabib still chose to take the back and try for the RNC.

Khabib has good arm triangles too. There was an old roll with him and Leandro Vieira posted on this forum where he was hitting arm triangles and brabo chokes when they were submission wrestling. So I don't think it's due to lack of ability.

 

[tekkenfan]

to risky alot of mma guys ie wrestlers arnt to big on jumping for a sub not everyone even in bjj gyms are great at subs wrestlers are good at holding guys down thats there nature even danaher said to joe gsp knows his basic leg lock system but why not just continue to do what he does when theres that much money on the line? its different when someone can hit you in the face and your wearing cheap century mma gloves

 

[JagRoss]

Well we saw Khabib take a different approach to the Laqinta fight where he instead of riding he took the back and went for submissions. You can clearly see that in that apporach going for the submission just stalled the fight and as a result Khabib wasnt able to land the normal amount of damage he does. It just takes way to long to go for a submission and it doesnt suit the game since there is a time limit. Fighters can easily stall you out and if u survive a round full of submission attempts u will likley be nearok in the next round where as if u somehow survive a round of constant ground and pound, then in the next round your nearly done and your body and ability will be compromised

Part of it was Laqinta grip fighting well, and avoiding the wrist feed no?

 

[yetanother]

Subbing people isn't that easy. People pick up sub defence with time even when training in a stupid and unstructured way. Even a submission wizard like Ryan Hall couldn't even sub a mostly unskilled Artem Lobov.