Kendo: the shift in Karate mentality and competition

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Hotora86, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    You know what's funny, the karate (or rather Japanese martial arts) folklore is actually believable compared to the kung fu ones
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  2. Azam

    Azam Purple Belt

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    I fell for a lot of these fables/stories too when I first started training and even until 2011 still believed a lot of it. It's only when you get older & the razzle/dazzle wears off and you get a bit mature you recognize the stories for the horseshit they are. It would be nice to have more people in Karate that think more critically. But we're talking about a generation that was fed on that those fables.

    It doesn't help either though that a lot of people - grown adults - don't use critical thinking & spread the misinformation - and buy into it. I think as well in the case of Oyama - there was a lot of marketing misinformation involved that was designed to attract potential students at the expense of truth. Inflate your accomplishments to attract students & grow your style.

    I mean till this day there is no information on the post-ww2 tournament that Mas Oyama supposedly fought in. Something that is weird considering there would have been some mention of it at the time. Nothing. Personally I don't think it ever happened - or it's exaggerated. The countless bulls he supposedly killed with one strike - also doubt (only ever seen 2 photos of him with different bulls). It makes me think did he even actually stay in the mountains training in solitude for 18 months. Probably not 100% true either.
     
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  3. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    this is what i thought of karate for the longest time....lol ...man was i wrong.

     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  4. AshiharaFan

    AshiharaFan Brown Belt

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    You mean to tell me you'll believe a Japanese folklore of a fighter having defeated 1,000 men in combat in one day before you believe a master of Chi Kung is able to shoot Qi waves from his hands and destroy stone structures with it from 20 feet away? I'm disappointed in you.

    And I think you're just as aware as I am that the Japanese culture is really big on legends and folklore. Most of them will believe a lot of those things without question and it has nothing to do with niceties or allowing the storyteller to save face. Culturally they are simply attracted to legends and folklore.

    As much as I still admire and respect Sosai (for my own reasons independent of belief in the stories) I too have slowly but surely come to the same conclusions as you. Had I been told these stories as a grown man instead of as a kid I wouldn't have believed those stories at face value like I once did.

    With all due respect to Sosai and Kyokushinkai-kan and I have no reason to believe the post WW2 tournament story w/out some sort of documentation of that event. Same thing with his 300 Man Kumite. Jon Bluming has a thing or two to say about the bull fighting thing and there's no proof of Sosai's 3 year mountain training since he supposedly had a friend who accompanied him but couldn't hack it so he left while Sosai Oyama stayed and continued his mountain training all by himself.

    To be honest how many people who are not students of either martial art (Kung Fu or Karate) and has no knowledge of the history and cultural differences of both arts would be able to differentiate the two? To the average Joe Schmo It's all the same.
     
  5. Hotora86

    Hotora86 by armbar

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    • average Joe: Karate is like Kung Fu, right?
    • Karate student: Karate is not Kung Fu, it's a separate martial art.
    • Karate scholar: Okinawan Karate is Fujian White Crane Kung Fu + Tegumi and other minor influences.
    And thus we have gone full circle! :D
     
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  6. Hotora86

    Hotora86 by armbar

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    I always treated the fables as, well, fables - exaggerated stories to add mystique and / or fame to the image of the art's founder. I thought that was pretty natural since I have been exposed to Russian fables since early childhood.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bylina

    A trait that Russians definitely share with the Japanese. :)

    BTW I was always slightly disappointed that while other famous Karate masters were killing bulls and bears with their bare hands or fighting hundreds of people, the only "fable" about Funakoshi was him standing still on the roof in the middle of a typhoon. Still impressive but kinda weak in comparison. :p Though, according to Gichin himself, that story is actually TRUE. :D

    http://www.shotokai.com/training-life-master-gichin-funakoshi-typhoon/
     
  7. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    fixed
     
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  8. Hotora86

    Hotora86 by armbar

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    Damn, you figured me out! :D
     
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  9. AshiharaFan

    AshiharaFan Brown Belt

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    I never knew that was him. From I recall I thought it was Tatsuo Shimabuku, founder of Isshin-ryu.

    Also, in staying track of the topic, Okinawan Shorin-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu and Kyokushin all share the Heian/Pinan katas (with minor differences in order and execution). But as far as I know of these four styles of Karate only Shotokan and Wado-ryu seem to fully embody the sparring movements and strategies of Kendo lending credibility in TS's opening premise. It is also well known that Shotokan and Wado-ryu stylists interpret and apply these movements and strategies in their kata bunkai. Why the big difference between these four styles that share at least 5 of the same kata between them? The Ikken Hissatsu mentality that prevails in Shotokan and Wado-ryu sparring is why. I have seen very little Shorin-ryu stylists in point tournaments compared to how many Shotokan stylists I've seen in tournaments but based on what I have observed the two do not seem to resemble each other in sparring style at all. And we all know how Kyokushin stylists spar so the typical Ikken Hissatsu mentality does not work in that arena.
     
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  10. Hotora86

    Hotora86 by armbar

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    I agree. The thing that I would like to find out the most is - did Gichin and Gigo Funakoshi teach the *bunkai* to the Pinan/Heian kata as close range combat ("okinawan style") or as long range ("japanese style"). And if it was close range then why did Gichin's pupils (JKA?) change it to long range?
     
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  11. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    the karate rap song didnt make me want to do karate

    the muay thai rap song didnt make me want to do muay thai

    <Moves><Moves>


    <Moves><Moves>
     
  12. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    your so right, karate gets lumped in with all the other stuff like kung fu, when I hear kung fu i think of kung fu panda or crouchign tiger hidden dragon, yellow bambo whimsical nonsense

    check out this and look at duded old tyme boxer stance...wtf!


    [​IMG]
     
  13. AshiharaFan

    AshiharaFan Brown Belt

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    Both of those videos are cringey as hell. It's a draw though because although the Karate video was cringier than the muay Thai vid that 80s style hook is kinda lit for real.
    <{1-69}>
     
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  14. AshiharaFan

    AshiharaFan Brown Belt

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    I cannot say for sure but I'm going to take a guess and say the JKA changed it to long range for obvious reasons. One reason being that Gichin was against sparring and DEFINITELY against tournaments and "Karate as a spectator sport". Now since Gigo had no probs with sparring matches did he have a hand in the JKA's emphases from short, upright stances to low deep stances and from short range to long range fighting?
     
  15. shinkyoku

    shinkyoku Brown Belt

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    One of the problem of karate today was that apparently neither Funakoshi really taught anyone bunkai to any extent. Several second generation shotokan masters have gone on record saying that they never learned any bunkai, and when pressed by their students, made up stuff on the fly. This helps explain many things, but it does not really make it any better -especially when people still teach the bullsh..., excuse me.. ..strange bunkai this often produced, and treat is as the one and only truth.

    I like kata and I love bunkai. But there is no getting aroud the fact that kata has proven a very bad transmitter of knowledge and skill.
     
  16. superpunch

    superpunch Yellow Card Yellow Card

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    Japanese martial arts in general are not effective.

    Judo gold medalists can't really compete with some dude that has a few months of real training. It's not a real martial art. It's more for show on TV.

    Karate is also not very useful. The only successful karate fighter had to implement muay thai and boxing heavily into his standup game. By that time, he was hardly a karate fighter. Whereas real martial arts like muay thai and boxing can just pick up complementary bits and pieces from other martial arts instead of having to do a complete overhaul.

    Aikido is not very useful either.

    Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is incredibly effective. It's difficult to understand it in the context of the other Japanese martial arts. It's not even in Japan. They don't do BJJ there. So, it's not really a Japanese martial art. The Brazilians developed it through real fighting.
     
  17. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    theres alot of kyokushin fighters that transitioned over to muay thai and did well.
     
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  18. AshiharaFan

    AshiharaFan Brown Belt

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    This entire reply is nothing short of a anti traditional, pro mma post. Of course it is ignorantly incorrect and misguided to say the least.
     
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  19. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    Dutch KB's base came from KK, and KK's pretty close to MT as a combat sport.

    So what's your definition of a Japanese martial art?

    They have "Brazil Muay Thai" over in Brazil. Tested through vale tudo and real fighting. Still not as good as MT
     
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  20. superpunch

    superpunch Yellow Card Yellow Card

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    A Japanese martial art is a martial art in Japan from Japan that is done by the Japanese.
     

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