Keeping lead hand in sticking out in front?

[Alanf7]

What is the benefit of doing this? By this i mean when you glue your rear hand to your cheek and keep your lead hand sticking out. What is the benefit of this? What are the cons of it? Is it better for fighters with more or less reach? What are some strategys with this guard?

 

[shinkyoku]

I sometimes use it on less experienced guys.
You use the arm as a antenna. as long as the opponent are outside of your reach you are safe. The oppnent have to lauch his attacks from slightly longer range than he is used to and it drives them insane. Sometimes I just move out of the way when they try to go in, sometimes I keep the arm rigid and use bodyweight shift to meet them half way and push them off ballance. sometimes, once the opponet has understood that they need to get inside the arm length to attack, I move the shoulder back and shorten the distance without them noticing it, and then launch an attack when they think they are safe.It is a very defensive stance.

Opponents tend to be frustrated and become focused on he hand as they cannot grasp that it really is not a threat in itself, and that you really give upp that hand as a effective offensive weapon. It is weak against good kickers (especially front kicks/teeps).

It is a fun way to mess with the head of less experienced guys and guys who have never seen it, but it is useless against any decent guy who have encountered it before.
People who do not get distracted by the hand and just moves in forcefully, quickly force you to do something else for amusement.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

I wouldn't get used to doing that if I were you. It opens you up for some really bad stuff. It basically puts your face on a tee for anyone who knows how to fight a little.

 

[Hotora86]

Works only if you're Jon Jones... and you poke the eyes.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

The Soviet school of boxing uses it quite a lot. So do fighters like Conor McGregor. It's fine to use so long as you train properly.

Plenty of fighters use it, it can obstruct the opponent's view, it can check their jab (assuming southpaw) and so on. It's also very common in Muay Thai which tends to have a longer guard than boxing. I've used it pretty much for as long as I've been training and I was taught with it - and honestly I've never had any problems, you've just got to understand WHY you use it - as opposed to just doing it because you've seen other fighters do it.

You shouldn't rely on your hands to defend you, you should rely on your footwork and head positioning to defend you. Your hands are for striking and wrestling - if defending with your hands is your crutch then all your opponent has to do is smack you about and you'll be blocking with your hands, and they won't need to fear the counter.

Hands up is for beginners - there is so much more to defense than hands up, and I wish more would understand that.

@Sinister could probably go into this with much more depth than I, though.

 

[ARIZE]

In Muay Thai, it's called the long guard. Lots of people use it. Some of them have it as their main stance, some like me use it only occasionally. For me, it helps me when entering or exiting the clinch. It gives me a better control, and a better sense on my opponents intention: is he moving in, is he breaking out, how its his balance at the moment..

For example, if like to put my hand above his chest, just under his shoulder. If I feel he is pushing, that means he is moving forward. I know that a piercing knee is a good strike to use from there. I just have to retract my hand and his pushing movement will make him "run" into the knee, adding in damages...Then I usually have to re-extent my hand to close the clinch.

In Taekwondo ITF some people use it. The guy at my gym who does it, it's for the same reasons shinkyoku gave.
It messes with the distances, it occupies the opponents focus, it gives a false sense of immediate threat.
And it even helps with the defense, since in TKD ITF, most of the times, the front hand deviates the first attack while you counter back.

 

[Sinister]

Two things:

1) Gauging distance to tell how far away the opponent is. That information is crucial to hitting them, and preventing getting hit by them.

2) Threatening the opponent. If you do want a specific distance, the opponent must have a deterrent to advancing. Think of a knife fight. If you have a knife, better to threaten your opponent with it if they also have a knife, as opposed to keeping it closer to yourself and less of a danger to them.

Examples:



Some people would attribute Rigo's ability to NOT use his right hand as defense to his speed, but that's actually backwards. He uses the technique of consistently poking and prodding with his right hand to ascertain how far the opponent is, make his attack, and recover to a safe position. It just makes him look fast when the opponent's reaction is always a step behind.



Many people like to think Golovkin's opponents are there to be hit out of fear. That they fear him so much they just don't do much when he fires. But the fact is they're not sure what range he's at while he's sure what range they are at (mostly, when he's unsure, you see him get hit back, he just doesn't always care). He essentially uses his left hand to say "stay right there"...then throws his power shots.

Erickson Lubin fights very similarly:



These guys just trade the perceived risk of less defense for control of distance, which ion Rigo's case, leads to easier acquiring of angles. He makes a move at a certain distance, the opponent sees it and tries to adjust and attack, but is too far away to actually hit him.

 

[devante]

Two things:

1) Gauging distance to tell how far away the opponent is. That information is crucial to hitting them, and preventing getting hit by them.

2) Threatening the opponent. If you do want a specific distance, the opponent must have a deterrent to advancing. Think of a knife fight. If you have a knife, better to threaten your opponent with it if they also have a knife, as opposed to keeping it closer to yourself and less of a danger to them.

Examples:



Some people would attribute Rigo's ability to NOT use his right hand as defense to his speed, but that's actually backwards. He uses the technique of consistently poking and prodding with his right hand to ascertain how far the opponent is, make his attack, and recover to a safe position. It just makes him look fast when the opponent's reaction is always a step behind.



Many people like to think Golovkin's opponents are there to be hit out of fear. That they fear him so much they just don't do much when he fires. But the fact is they're not sure what range he's at while he's sure what range they are at (mostly, when he's unsure, you see him get hit back, he just doesn't always care). He essentially uses his left hand to say "stay right there"...then throws his power shots.

Erickson Lubin fights very similarly:



These guys just trade the perceived risk of less defense for control of distance, which ion Rigo's case, leads to easier acquiring of angles. He makes a move at a certain distance, the opponent sees it and tries to adjust and attack, but is too far away to actually hit him.

#listentothisman

 

[Davem10]

My god its hell

A 15 year old done this to me and i couldnt do anything, do you realise how embarrasing that is

He was the tallest 15 year old id ever seen but super thin, still, he had huge reach on me

He was a good 6 foot 2 and all he did was extend that arm fully out and leave it in front of my face. When i tried to use head movement to get inside he would still keep the arm extended but track my head while taking short backward steps to maintain distance

I couldnt do shit, couldnt get close

Bare in mind this wasnt legit sparring, it was body sparring with taps to the face as i didnt have a gumshield. But either way, i couldnt get close. I can only guess in real sparring i would have slipped once and bullrushed in with many shots in a hope to catch him and then stay in close. Thats just a guess though and in reality it probably wouldnt have worked

 

[Uchi Mata]

If you're talking about just stiff arming/using a very long guard, I'm not a big fan of doing it too much because as other posters have stated it leaves you pretty open to all manner of shots (if you stand with your arm outstretched long enough, eventually your opponent is going to slip out of its way and then you have very little defense to mean body hooks. At least that's what I like to do when people stiff arm too much). However, if you're talking about having your hand out a lot with a pawing jab or using the stiff arm to exit the clinch or help defend when you angle out after finishing a combo I like it a lot and use it a lot. I'm a long guy, so I like to keep it out there to frustrate people and open up looks for the right hand, as well as draw the counter and attack off of it. You can also use that jab to change up your rhythm if you switch unpredictable between pawing and putting some pop in it, and vary how many pawing jabs you throw before throwing the right or kicking or what have you. Changing up the speed, changing up the angle, using is sometimes to set stuff up, sometimes just to annoy, sometimes to draw the counter, etc. makes it a very versatile weapon.

 

[Uchi Mata]

My god its hell

A 15 year old done this to me and i couldnt do anything, do you realise how embarrasing that is

He was the tallest 15 year old id ever seen but super thin, still, he had huge reach on me

He was a good 6 foot 2 and all he did was extend that arm fully out and leave it in front of my face. When i tried to use head movement to get inside he would still keep the arm extended but track my head while taking short backward steps to maintain distance

I couldnt do shit, couldnt get close

Bare in mind this wasnt legit sparring, it was body sparring with taps to the face as i didnt have a gumshield. But either way, i couldnt get close. I can only guess in real sparring i would have slipped once and bullrushed in with many shots in a hope to catch him and then stay in close. Thats just a guess though and in reality it probably wouldnt have worked

Did you consider just punching his arm?

 

[Davem10]

Did you consider just punching his arm?

I did not

Which punch would you say i should have hit his arm with

 

[freaky]

My god its hell

A 15 year old done this to me and i couldnt do anything, do you realise how embarrasing that is

He was the tallest 15 year old id ever seen but super thin, still, he had huge reach on me

He was a good 6 foot 2 and all he did was extend that arm fully out and leave it in front of my face. When i tried to use head movement to get inside he would still keep the arm extended but track my head while taking short backward steps to maintain distance

I couldnt do shit, couldnt get close

Bare in mind this wasnt legit sparring, it was body sparring with taps to the face as i didnt have a gumshield. But either way, i couldnt get close. I can only guess in real sparring i would have slipped once and bullrushed in with many shots in a hope to catch him and then stay in close. Thats just a guess though and in reality it probably wouldnt have worked

You smash that lead hand down and rush in. Smash it hard so he have a longer time to bring it up.

Keeping it out there is bad. But using it to "paw" like mayweather or poke lik Jones is fine. My lead is always sticking out but not straight out 24/7. I extend>retract>extend>retract. Like some half ass endless double jabs.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I did not

Which punch would you say i should have hit his arm with

Lead uppercut or hook. Then step in a follow with a right to the body or right uppercut.

Though simpler would probably be just to bat his arm down with your glove and use the rebound to throw a little jab or hook. Is this boxing or MT? Because I'm not a boxer so I don't know what's legal in terms of batting the arms, but in MT I might even just try to bat his arm inward while taking a big step to the outside to try and enter a favorable clinch.

 

[Davem10]

You smash that lead hand down and rush in. Smash it hard so he have a longer time to bring it up.

Keeping it out there is bad. But using it to "paw" like mayweather or poke lik Jones is fine. My lead is always sticking out but not straight out 24/7. I extend>retract>extend>retract. Like some half ass endless double jabs.

Good tip i will try that

I still doubt i will reach him though, hes about 6 foot 2 im 5 foot 8, his reach is way longer and he has his reach fully extended in my face, even once i knock it down i still have a large distance to cover which he can easily step back and reestablish things again

Still, its better idea than what i tried which was just moving my head to get inside as he just used the hand to follow my head while maintaining the distance

 

[Davem10]

Lead uppercut or hook. Then step in a follow with a right to the body or right uppercut.

Though simpler would probably be just to bat his arm down with your glove and use the rebound to throw a little jab or hook. Is this boxing or MT? Because I'm not a boxer so I don't know what's legal in terms of batting the arms, but in MT I might even just try to bat his arm inward while taking a big step to the outside to try and enter a favorable clinch.

Yeah its boxing

I will try these things

 

[freaky]

Good tip i will try that

I still doubt i will reach him though, hes about 6 foot 2 im 5 foot 8, his reach is way longer and he has his reach fully extended in my face, even once i knock it down i still have a large distance to cover which he can easily step back and reestablish things again

Still, its better idea than what i tried which was just moving my head to get inside as he just used the hand to follow my head while maintaining the distance

You probably still won't. I've fought big tall guys like that. But you would've pushed him back. Rinse and repeat, inch by inch, you will corner him. He will start to panic and strafe left and right while throwing combos at you. Don't be scared and cut him off. Corner him and box away. Or clinch up.

You can always try to control the arm when he brings it back up. I know it's hard fighting lengthy guys. It's so easy to fight someone shorter than me. It's a bitch fighting taller. Same reach is where the fight is at. I always enjoyed watching shorter guys vs taller guys. The short guys always have great head movements.

 

[Kickzilla]

To extend a little from Sinister's overview of what an extended lead hand is intended for and accomplishes I have two practical and basic suggestions on how to see its importance at work in your own sparring.

While defending: Jab and move, you're not only defending yourself with your feet but your jab is occupying the space between you and your opponent. That forces them to contend with a resisting force as they are moving forward and it will slow down their attack and at times even stall it. By jabbing and moving you're also giving your brain a tactile measurement of distance giving you a better sense of moving "just enough" as opposed to just spazzing out and running and leaving yourself out of position to counter. You know they've either made contact with the end of your jab and you're safely out of the way but still in position to attack or they're just out of reach of your jab and you can correctly move back or adjust.

While attacking: I think this goes regardless of how tall or short you are in height and reach. If you're actively jabbing all the time you're forcing them to react to you not the other way around. It can keep your opponent honest making them move in cautiously as opposed to giving them the belief that they can bumrush you. It's also a ruler and measuring device it gets you in contact with your opponent and if your jab is landing that means other punches can land. As a measuring device it's letting you probe their reaction, forcing them to defend if you're jabbing accurately and with proper weight behind it.

 

[Alanf7]

To extend a little from Sinister's overview of what an extended lead hand is intended for and accomplishes I have two practical and basic suggestions on how to see its importance at work in your own sparring.

While defending: Jab and move, you're not only defending yourself with your feet but your jab is occupying the space between you and your opponent. That forces them to contend with a resisting force as they are moving forward and it will slow down their attack and at times even stall it. By jabbing and moving you're also giving your brain a tactile measurement of distance giving you a better sense of moving "just enough" as opposed to just spazzing out and running and leaving yourself out of position to counter. You know they've either made contact with the end of your jab and you're safely out of the way but still in position to attack or they're just out of reach of your jab and you can correctly move back or adjust.

While attacking: I think this goes regardless of how tall or short you are in height and reach. If you're actively jabbing all the time you're forcing them to react to you not the other way around. It can keep your opponent honest making them move in cautiously as opposed to giving them the belief that they can bumrush you. It's also a ruler and measuring device it gets you in contact with your opponent and if your jab is landing that means other punches can land. As a measuring device it's letting you probe their reaction, forcing them to defend if you're jabbing accurately and with proper weight behind it.

Thanks man, very helpful.

 

[Sinister]

Good tip i will try that

I still doubt i will reach him though, hes about 6 foot 2 im 5 foot 8, his reach is way longer and he has his reach fully extended in my face, even once i knock it down i still have a large distance to cover which he can easily step back and reestablish things again

Still, its better idea than what i tried which was just moving my head to get inside as he just used the hand to follow my head while maintaining the distance

The problem with some of the suggestions on how to deal with it are that the moment you touch the person's lead arm or hand, they KNOW how far away you are. If they're any good or know WHY they're trying to get that information, you're gonna get hammered. They'll keep you at THEIR optimal distance, and you'll always struggle to reach them and make them have to reach because you keep giving them the information they need over and over.

This reminds me of a video I saw on fencing where a fencing instructor who built multiple Olympic medalists was asked about feints and sword-play (where you tap their sword with yours, then attack, which is the same thing we're discussing here). He said you can always spot an novice fencer because they're obsessed with these two things, trickery. It's the tell-tale sign of a novice. That's not an insult, but he said when you're a novice and first learn these things you want to do them to EVERYONE. Until you come across a master fencer. The difference is a master fencer typically ignores these attempts at trickery, they're either going to stab you or not stab you. They'll only use feints and swordplay sparingly, if the need arises.

So, I've said all that to say this: I teach my fighters to treat hand-play as if it were a punch. Don't do anything different than what you would do if they were actually throwing a jab at you. Here is my Elite level Amateur Daijon Carter sparring with the #1 141lb'er in the U.S. right this second. He does well against Freudis because when Freudis tries to measure him, he responds to each attempt as if he is being punched at, or as if he is not being punched at:



(My fighter is in black)