Karo's single leg counter with a standing kimura?

migeru29

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I was watching some of his fights and most of the time he used this counter for single leg TD attempts. He didn't finish this counter with a submission but it was very effective to have his opponents to let it go or as kind of backward roll.

I wonder why nobody is using this? Is this very difficult to implement? Or would the judges not understand what's going on and probably count that as a take down? If this is the case then I would agree that this is a perfect example of the wrestler having the rule advantage, I don't buy into this "wrestling rule advantage" BS but this would be a single valid example.
 
Reilly Bodycomb showed this to me at a takedown camp. I hit it in a tournament with a backward roll into top half guard and I got takedown points, so I don't think it's a points issue.

As for why more people aren't doing it...who knows? Most people hate training takedowns/stand up, so it's already disadvantaged as a move there. Depending on your weight class, in competition people pull guard rather than shoot for singles, so you'd be better off training double guard pull scenarios.
 
Reilly Bodycomb showed this to me at a takedown camp. I hit it in a tournament with a backward roll into top half guard and I got takedown points, so I don't think it's a points issue.

As for why more people aren't doing it...who knows? Most people hate training takedowns/stand up, so it's already disadvantaged as a move there. Depending on your weight class, in competition people pull guard rather than shoot for singles, so you'd be better off training double guard pull scenarios.

Thanks for your feedback but a judge in a BJJ tournament would probably have more grappling knowledge and would focus on this details better than the MMA judges.
 
Oh, didn't realize you meant "why isn't this getting used more in MMA". My comment is nonsense then, disregard.
 
I think its just a matter of preference and muscle memory. Not many fighters like to hit improvised techniques they don't train. Even fewer will hit this move instinctively.

There is also Karo's background to consider. He came from a gym that was high level in just about every grappling art imaginable (aside from BJJ). He would've been more likely to be exposed to this technique than a fighter who has predominantly a wrestling or BJJ base.
 
It surprises me that it isn’t a more widespread move. It is very easy, and when I learned it I was immediately able to use it to great effect against solid guys. I do believe David Avellan uses it quite a bit as a part of his kimura trap system.

One thing to remember when training it is to have your opponent’s head on the inside. Not because you need to, but because you might spike his head if you fumble the move.

The backward roll is called sumi gaeshi.
 
Pretty sure Nate Diaz used to use it all the time. I think in the Joe Stevenson fight Joe had this amazing counter to it, he would like roll backwards and end up taking Diaz down it was beautiful to watch. I tried to find the fight again to see if I remembered correctly but I can't find it anywhere.
 
Im a big fan of it. I think if you have a choice between spending training time on a technique that gives you positional control, and spending training time on a technique that gives you positional control with a submission, going with the shorter path to submission is a better investment almost every time.
 
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Man I miss Karo, that dude was a true gangster, he just controlled himself, would love to see him mixing it up today in the new UFC circus..
 
Karo's? Bodycomb? Diaz? Oh you guys mean that Mark Schultz move...


 
Man I miss Karo, that dude was a true gangster, he just controlled himself, would love to see him mixing it up today in the new UFC circus..

Unfortunately he's pretty much done and it's a shame. You know what really impressed me; not to long ago he had a match against AJ Agazarm in Metamoris. You can tell that Karo was completely out of shape and yet the match ended up in a draw.
 
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Not long ago Karo was gearing up to start a podcast. The first clips were rough around the edges but it had potential.
 
Not long ago Karo was gearing up to start a podcast. The first clips were rough around the edges but it had potential.


I try that link www.nogijudo.com and it doesn't work. Probably the is a failure project or maybe is work in process. His twitter and instagram are very outdated. Would be nice if Joe Rogan bring him for a long interview.
 
I was watching some of his fights and most of the time he used this counter for single leg TD attempts. He didn't finish this counter with a submission but it was very effective to have his opponents to let it go or as kind of backward roll.

I wonder why nobody is using this? Is this very difficult to implement? Or would the judges not understand what's going on and probably count that as a take down? If this is the case then I would agree that this is a perfect example of the wrestler having the rule advantage, I don't buy into this "wrestling rule advantage" BS but this would be a single valid example.
Ramazan Emeev used a kimura to defend every single takedown attempt in his last UFC fight against Stefan Sekulic.

And then of course, there's the GOAT kimura by Mitsuhiro Ishida:

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So sumi gaeshi is still a sacrifice throw. Most people won't do it because if you mess up, you'll end up on your back and in an inferior position in MMA. But in all honesty, not many people in MMA have probably practiced this.
 
So sumi gaeshi is still a sacrifice throw. Most people won't do it because if you mess up, you'll end up on your back and in an inferior position in MMA. But in all honesty, not many people in MMA have probably practiced this.
This concept has always been part of the judo vs wrestling for MMA use debate I suppose. Unless you're very good at judo or a great scrambler you risk leaving yourself exposed.
 
The kimura is a highly underrated technique for freestyle fighting. It can be used to counter the double leg and when someone has your back via a bodylock, side control top/bottom, guard/half guard,turtle bottom, the list goes on and on. There is basically never a wrong time to go for the kimura.

Even from side control bottom when your opponent spins for the armbar. If you push the kimura up into their hips as they spin you will reverse them.

Mount bottom is a funky place to get it, but if you mangage to lock it on, keep it and then attempt to recover guard/halfguard.
 
I think its just a matter of preference and muscle memory. Not many fighters like to hit improvised techniques they don't train. Even fewer will hit this move instinctively.

There is also Karo's background to consider. He came from a gym that was high level in just about every grappling art imaginable (aside from BJJ). He would've been more likely to be exposed to this technique than a fighter who has predominantly a wrestling or BJJ base.

His grappling was also formed largely by Gene LeBell. His game has a strong catch influence, and the double wrist lock is a huge point of emphasis in catch from pretty much any position. If you want to see someone else who uses the Kimura/DWL in transitions all the time, especially to defend sweeps and takedowns, go watch some Sakuraba fights. That's about the purest catch wrestling you can get.
 
His grappling was also formed largely by Gene LeBell. His game has a strong catch influence, and the double wrist lock is a huge point of emphasis in catch from pretty much any position. If you want to see someone else who uses the Kimura/DWL in transitions all the time, especially to defend sweeps and takedowns, go watch some Sakuraba fights. That's about the purest catch wrestling you can get.
Good call. I actually remember a fan made video from some years back. The title was something to the effect of ..............let me just find it and post it.

I cant find the full video but here is part 2.
 
Sakuraba's biggest problem was that he never learned to pass the guard. If he had he'd have even more finishes.
 
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