But you agreed after a double take? How is that talking out of my ass? But hey, whatevs. Remember to wear a headguard.
Karate blocks against punches/weapons
- Thread starter JustOnce
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Well millions and millions people practice karate and taekwondo and tens and hundreds of thousand people devotes their life to the art with those teachings
Who the fuck are you to say otherwise
Because you train UFC? Dont throw baseless accusations out of your ass without any facts especially against 100 plus years of history and training and sacrifices and millions of practitioner
Who are you? What do you have anything to go on?
You train UFC?
Chill out. I just did my research because while I'm not practicing Karate anymore, I love it. The history of Karate is pretty weird, complicated and with a lot of stuff simply made up by later generations.
Whoops, did I come off as one of those MMA guys who are perpetually stuck in the 1990s and badmouth traditional styles? I'm anything but. I don't even like MMA that much (mostly because of its fans).
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Oh okay you dont train and you think you know better than Gichin Funakoshi and Nakamuta. Oh boy. You sure dont lack confidence, I give you that
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Aw, looks like I missed a party! I suppose I'll still throw in my 2 cents, though.
Karate wasn't developed by farmers/peasants to fight samurai--it was developed by the Okinawan nobility, most of whom held positions as bodyguards, palace/temple/garden guards, military leaders, and police.
Okinawans totally had weapons--there is a myth that they were banned, because of a misinterpretation of two old laws, which have since been better translated and understood.
Funakoshi Gichin, despite being widely acknowledged as a "master" later in life, and to this day, was pretty much a nobody on Okinawa--he was sent to the mainland to teach karate because he was a trained teacher in the Japanese education system, spoke Japanese fluently, and understood Japanese culture very well, not because he was the most knowledgeable karate instructor available. That isn't to take away from his knowledge or skill, necessarily, but he was just "average" for karateka of the time, as best we can tell from contemporary accounts. Some of his material came from Azato Anko, while other material came from Itosu Anko (no relation), and while the material from Azato can be reasonably assumed to have practical methods, the material from Itosu could be questionable, for a couple reasons.
Itosu Anko is most certainly responsible for starting the process of watering down karate, which most people associate with his push to incorporate karate into the school system, but there is more to it--he may not have actually even known much practical karate, to begin with! Most people believe that Itosu's teacher was "Bushi" Matsumura Sokon, the head royal bodyguard and martial arts instructor to the royal family, but in truth, he was only one of Itosu's instructors, and he was not the one with which Itosu spent most of his time. Matsumura didn't like Itosu very much, and thought he was too slow (physically), so they had a bit of a falling out. Itosu ended up spending over a decade training with Naha-Te master, Nagahama Peichin, instead, only to find out on Nagahama's deathbed that he had only been teaching Itosu the physical development and conditioning methods of karate, not the fighting methods, and that if he wanted to learn those he would need to go back to Matsumura. Itosu did go back to Matsumura, at that point, but it's hard to say how much practical material he learned from that. We can tell, however, from comparing Itosu-lineage material to other styles, like Motobu Udundi, Matsumura Seito Shorin-Ryu, and KishimotoDi, that the Naha-Te training he did with Nagahama had a significant influence. Add to that his desire to incorporate karate into the physical education program in the Japanese school system, and we can see that his intent with the development of karate was not really its practical application. Of course, the methods are still present in the kata, but I think many of Itosu's students didn't learn how to apply them, or didn't pass them on.
Thankfully, not all of Itosu's students, and not all styles, lost the practical application of the kata movements, and the training methods to go with them. The trouble is that individuals can only remember and pass on so much, so things were still forgotten, here and there. We are lucky to live in an age where technology has made it possible to connect with people all over the world, so bringing that knowledge back together and consolidating it has gotten easier. We know that the over-formalized, simplistic, unrealistic application of "blocks" (the Japanese word actually means "to receive," by the way, not "block") is not the way they were intended to be used, and was really just a basic teaching tool for how those movements can manipulate limbs from different points of contact. They work much better as limb controls, joint locks, strikes, etc., for the most part. There are some instances in which they can be used to simply deflect attacks, but one of the main principles of old-style karate was "kobo ittai," which basically means "simultaneous attack and defense," so using them PURELY to deflect an attack would not meet that criteria, so whatever you are doing should do more than just stop the attack from reaching you--it should also do something offensive.
Karate wasn't developed by farmers/peasants to fight samurai--it was developed by the Okinawan nobility, most of whom held positions as bodyguards, palace/temple/garden guards, military leaders, and police.
Okinawans totally had weapons--there is a myth that they were banned, because of a misinterpretation of two old laws, which have since been better translated and understood.
Funakoshi Gichin, despite being widely acknowledged as a "master" later in life, and to this day, was pretty much a nobody on Okinawa--he was sent to the mainland to teach karate because he was a trained teacher in the Japanese education system, spoke Japanese fluently, and understood Japanese culture very well, not because he was the most knowledgeable karate instructor available. That isn't to take away from his knowledge or skill, necessarily, but he was just "average" for karateka of the time, as best we can tell from contemporary accounts. Some of his material came from Azato Anko, while other material came from Itosu Anko (no relation), and while the material from Azato can be reasonably assumed to have practical methods, the material from Itosu could be questionable, for a couple reasons.
Itosu Anko is most certainly responsible for starting the process of watering down karate, which most people associate with his push to incorporate karate into the school system, but there is more to it--he may not have actually even known much practical karate, to begin with! Most people believe that Itosu's teacher was "Bushi" Matsumura Sokon, the head royal bodyguard and martial arts instructor to the royal family, but in truth, he was only one of Itosu's instructors, and he was not the one with which Itosu spent most of his time. Matsumura didn't like Itosu very much, and thought he was too slow (physically), so they had a bit of a falling out. Itosu ended up spending over a decade training with Naha-Te master, Nagahama Peichin, instead, only to find out on Nagahama's deathbed that he had only been teaching Itosu the physical development and conditioning methods of karate, not the fighting methods, and that if he wanted to learn those he would need to go back to Matsumura. Itosu did go back to Matsumura, at that point, but it's hard to say how much practical material he learned from that. We can tell, however, from comparing Itosu-lineage material to other styles, like Motobu Udundi, Matsumura Seito Shorin-Ryu, and KishimotoDi, that the Naha-Te training he did with Nagahama had a significant influence. Add to that his desire to incorporate karate into the physical education program in the Japanese school system, and we can see that his intent with the development of karate was not really its practical application. Of course, the methods are still present in the kata, but I think many of Itosu's students didn't learn how to apply them, or didn't pass them on.
Thankfully, not all of Itosu's students, and not all styles, lost the practical application of the kata movements, and the training methods to go with them. The trouble is that individuals can only remember and pass on so much, so things were still forgotten, here and there. We are lucky to live in an age where technology has made it possible to connect with people all over the world, so bringing that knowledge back together and consolidating it has gotten easier. We know that the over-formalized, simplistic, unrealistic application of "blocks" (the Japanese word actually means "to receive," by the way, not "block") is not the way they were intended to be used, and was really just a basic teaching tool for how those movements can manipulate limbs from different points of contact. They work much better as limb controls, joint locks, strikes, etc., for the most part. There are some instances in which they can be used to simply deflect attacks, but one of the main principles of old-style karate was "kobo ittai," which basically means "simultaneous attack and defense," so using them PURELY to deflect an attack would not meet that criteria, so whatever you are doing should do more than just stop the attack from reaching you--it should also do something offensive.
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Can you use the traditional karate blocks against punches and kicks and stuff, sure. But the disconnect is always about what part of a karate movement in a specific kata is the block itself. We had a whole gedan barai thread about what the movement represents in various iterations but one thing that wasn't really discussed is that the initial part of the movement, the chambering of the hand to the opposite side of the head can be the block. That many of the karate movements that are considered bad blocks are really 2 part movements where the first part is the block and the part that everyone is paying attention to is the follow up movement.
Shuto uke is a decent example as well. Often people think of the movement as starting from the chambered position and then the shuto is either a block (which doesn't work very well) or a strike to the neck. But it's the process of getting into the chambered position where your block, in a self-defense setting, occurs. I know there are videos that demonstrate this but I'll try to type it anyway. The act of bringing the striking arm up into its chamber is the block/parry that moves the attacking limb attempting to push the arm off line. The outstretched hikite arm is working with the block-/parry- ing hand to try and control the attacking limb as the karateka steps in. Once the attack is parried, and hopefully controlled, the shuto arm sweeps out in the counter attack to the neck. That's just one example but plenty of others exist in the katas and are practiced by knowledgeable karateka.
That this got lost is one of the worst results from switching the order of the 1st 2 kata. Heian Nidan attempts to teach this pattern in the opening sequences but when Shodan became the first kata people started seeing that first gedan barai as the block, instead of as the 2 part movement that Nidan sets you up to understand it as.
And some of this is worsened because later kata assume you know this and so don't re-teach it.
Shuto uke is a decent example as well. Often people think of the movement as starting from the chambered position and then the shuto is either a block (which doesn't work very well) or a strike to the neck. But it's the process of getting into the chambered position where your block, in a self-defense setting, occurs. I know there are videos that demonstrate this but I'll try to type it anyway. The act of bringing the striking arm up into its chamber is the block/parry that moves the attacking limb attempting to push the arm off line. The outstretched hikite arm is working with the block-/parry- ing hand to try and control the attacking limb as the karateka steps in. Once the attack is parried, and hopefully controlled, the shuto arm sweeps out in the counter attack to the neck. That's just one example but plenty of others exist in the katas and are practiced by knowledgeable karateka.
That this got lost is one of the worst results from switching the order of the 1st 2 kata. Heian Nidan attempts to teach this pattern in the opening sequences but when Shodan became the first kata people started seeing that first gedan barai as the block, instead of as the 2 part movement that Nidan sets you up to understand it as.
And some of this is worsened because later kata assume you know this and so don't re-teach it.
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I just want to say before I got to a fight gym finally after 1 year and 4 months. Before that in the summer i had one training partner that I would meet up with at the park, but he wasn't there so there was only one guy over there by the pull up bars, and I asked him if he had any boxing or martial arts training he said no but he said he would spar with me a little.
So when I'm sparring with him he looks like he's be training some boxing, and he was blocking punches with some traditional tkd blocks (i'm pretty sure they were traditional tkd), and I asked him do you know karate or something and he's like my dad did taekwondo and I trained boxing with my brother. Those karate blocks work if there timed and fast enough. They really do work.
So when I'm sparring with him he looks like he's be training some boxing, and he was blocking punches with some traditional tkd blocks (i'm pretty sure they were traditional tkd), and I asked him do you know karate or something and he's like my dad did taekwondo and I trained boxing with my brother. Those karate blocks work if there timed and fast enough. They really do work.
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I don't train anything -- but from my point of view the most brutal form of karate, kyokushin, doesn't even allow head punches. So how can their blocks against punches be any good?
Unless we're talking about sport karate like kickboxing?
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I honestly think he has a point. Kung Fu styles used to be practiced competitively as UFC style fights on raised platforms for the ring. By the beginning of the 20th century though, those fights no longer happened and Kung Fu styles had been adopted into a singular school that taught it as performance arts. Similar things probably happened to Karate. The Karate that was brought to Japan in the 1920s probably wasn't the same Karate practiced by gangsters and fighters in Okinawa in the 1700s and 1800s, just like the Kung Fu that was popularized in 1900s China wasn't the same that people fought competitively with in the 1700s.
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Then why are people in Muay Thai adopting a graduation system with colored mongkhons like you have graduation and colored belts in Karate?
You slag off Karate on one hand, but on the other hand you keep posting and promoting about graduation and colored mongkhons for Muay Thai which is pretty much a rip off from martial arts like Karate:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/graduation-in-the-amateur-muaythai.3715581/
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Money
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IIRC the blocks were not meant to be static, they were intended to damage while protecting yourself, like checking a kick. Old school Karate had little kicks and more nasty stuff.
The whole fighting against armed attackers or mounted infantry I never believed. Sure they would fight them, but a system created to best them while they're armed? I don't think so, it'd be the same like protesters finding ways to try to beat cops, more likely in line with tactics and strategy rather than specific techniques.
Weapons is a whole different ballgame, nobody stands and bangs when it comes to that, even with today's age in the military. You try to regroup so you have a numbers advantage to take out your opposition, no using MCMAP crap to dispose. Hand 2 hand there is specifically created as a confidence booster, not a means to wreck dudes.
The whole fighting against armed attackers or mounted infantry I never believed. Sure they would fight them, but a system created to best them while they're armed? I don't think so, it'd be the same like protesters finding ways to try to beat cops, more likely in line with tactics and strategy rather than specific techniques.
Weapons is a whole different ballgame, nobody stands and bangs when it comes to that, even with today's age in the military. You try to regroup so you have a numbers advantage to take out your opposition, no using MCMAP crap to dispose. Hand 2 hand there is specifically created as a confidence booster, not a means to wreck dudes.
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I submit this as an example for discussion. it's hard to tell what Bader was trying to do (maybe switching stances cross or something?) but looks like Machida uses some kind of outward block away from his body, and about the same time throws his counter right. at the end, i believe Machida's left arm was inside of Bader's right arm. anyone know the proper name or description? i have zero karate training
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sorta like an intercepting fist, no?
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Oldschool karate had plenty of weapons. ranging from nasty spiked brass-knuckle to spear and shield. unarmed is fine and all, and necessary when cornered unprepared. But going up against armoured and armed opponents, noone is stupid enough to try. Even a rock or a sharp stick is an improvement -and the okinawans had access to better stuff.
As for mcmap and similar. Yes! Even in the most hardcore elite force, unarmed fighting is mostly BS. If you are in combat as a soldier, you have a weapon (or several) and armed friends close by. If you face a equally unarmed opponent, both of you alone, that is a sign that you have both seriously screwed up somewhere, and should have had more training not to lose your weapons or unit in the first place. Even if the h-t-h training is good, you need to dedicate way too much time, continually, to get and stay decent at it. Time that the military could better use teaching you skills you are much more likely to need.
Military h-t-h is more of agression training. If someone gets more out of it, it is an unintended accidental bonus.
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Looks like a basic high block to me. a Jodan uke or age uke depending on terminology. Going more to the side than the exaggerated formal version -making it work better against looping punches from the outside
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You do realise that Judo just like Karate has a lot of theory and also has kata?
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There is a lot of theory, and talk of "old timers" we've never met or seen non compliant footage of.
