Karate blackbelts in MMA

[AshiharaFan]

Tang Soo Do isn't just Shotokan Karate, it has origins from old Korean martial arts like Subak and Taekkyeon. Please keep the Karate Blackbelts list to Karateka.

TSD is Shotokan Karate with a Korean name. I suggest you thoroughly read up on the history of Wang Kee and the road he took to come up with Tang Soo Do.

Also maybe it varies from to place, but a colleague took me to a Tang Soo Do class in London it was nothing like the Shotokan I trained for several years.

Well, I've trained TSD a few years ago and attending one class is not the same as actually training it. I remember the first 4 hyung (forms) taught were so extremely similar to Taikyoku sono ichi, sono san and two of the first 3 Heian katas. The fact that Shotokan Karate existed long before TSD came about, that it was exported to Korea during Japanese occupation and that Wang Kee studied Shotokan Karate books to formulate what he called TSD are all undeniable and empirically observable. You will hear some elitists and nationalists deny this and say that TSD is it's own thing but research and intellectual honesty let's us know that it is essentially Shotokan Karate through and through. Wang Kee didn't do much to give TSD a different identity and look from Shotokan. In the case of Shotokan and TSD we can say that the apple really did not fall too far from the tree.

But Tay you never said WHY you don't want to see TSD on this list. What do you have against TSD or the thought of Korean KARATE stylists being included on a list of KARATE stylists? Why are you so Tang Soo Phobic?

 

[AshiharaFan]

I can't find any source for Horiguchi's style though I've tried. I'll keep it as "unknown" until something specific comes up but thanks for that extra insight.

Yeah, I agree with that move. It's obviously the more logical thing to do.

TKD is definitely its own thing and sherdoggers would rip me a new one if I included TKD guys on the list. I'd be more than happy if my thread inspired some TKD fan to make his own list and I'd try to help out but I'm not gonna do it myself.

Fair enough. And of all the sherdoggers who would be ready to rip you a new one they would all have to get in line behind spacetime. He may lay down the gauntlet and challenge you to a duel to the death.

TSD is similar and was indeed very much influenced by Karate but still, I don't think it really makes sense to add TSD guys. If I take that approach I might as well add American Kickboxing since it was also formed by blending Karate with another art (boxing). I'm not gonna go there.

Understandable, though I would like to say that the difference between TSD and American Kickboxing is that TSD is an art that starts at white belt and progresses to blackbelt and beyond just like Karate. And also like Karate TSD includes hyung (forms) which mimick the kata of Japanese Karate with very little to no changes with some of them. These things (among many) are absent from American Kickboxing.

 

[Tayski]

Whatever floats your boat mate. If you want to include TSD go for it, I don't really care.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Whatever floats your boat mate. If you want to include TSD go for it, I don't really care.

Well Hotora86 started this thread so I think it's only right to follow his lead on who should or should not be included in the list. He already said that he's not going to include TSD and TKD guys on the list and I'm not going to try to undermine such a great thread by throwing in TSD names myself.

But I really am curious about what appears to be vehement disgust for TSD coming from you. We already know that TSD and TKD guys will not be listed in this thread so it's okay to share what it is about TSD that seems to put such a sour taste in your mouth and why you don't want to lump TSD with Karate. But if it's not something you wish to go into then that's cool with me.

 

[Tayski]

You're trying to dig into it a bit too much, and you're also misinterpreting what I'm saying by making your own conclusions. I never expressed having disgust or a bad taste from TSD. I just said it's not really Karate, has origins in traditional Korean arts, and that when I did try it out of curiosity it was quite different from what I had been doing for several years in Shotokan (the structure of the class, the names of the techniques, the type of sparring, etc.).

My other point is that this a Karate blackbelts list, so we should keep it to Karate and not try to include arts which some may consider "similar".

*edit* Also, to answer your last few posts:

I'm not interested in thoroughly reading up on the history of Wang Kee or Tang Soo Do. It's really not a style I'm interested in.

You can tell me all you want that I'm "Tang Soo Phobic" (wtf by the way), and that Shotokan has massively inspired the creation of Tang Soo Do, I have still seen first hand that it's different when I compare it with over 5 years of training and competing in Shotokan.

Even if we look just at the syllabus and terminology, a gyaku tsuki or a jodan mawashi geri is the same in any Karate style be in Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Wado Ryu, Kyokushin etc. However it's just not called that in TSD.

Then if we look at the sparring, it just looks and feel a lot more like some kind of Tae Kwon Do or maybe even American Kickboxing rather than Shotokan sparring (the stance, the movement, the techniques used...):





Do those 2 videos above look like this:


or this:

 

[CFGroup]

I'm not interested in thoroughly reading up on the history of Wang Kee or Tang Soo Do. It's really not a style I'm interested in.

It's not like a weeks hard work to up your IQ, LOL!

Fact, Japan occupied the Korean peninsula!

Fact, Korean MA use the belt system because of the Japanese influence!

Fact, Japanese MA created the structure and techniques that Korean MA imitated to codify it's systems.

You have to be really careful with the Youtube references you post because there's a shitload of difference between carefully followed lineages and the crossover partial systems.

I'm betting that your Shotokan lineage is broken and you are learning a watered down hybrid version. Post up your lineage line...I'll take the fuckin time to follow it back....Because that's what I do as a curious Martial Artist interested in quality teaching and technique.

I've had the honor of training and being trained by people who served and lived in Okinawa. And the difference in the arts in their authentic form is stunning!

I could go on, but I'm not the 1 whining about how hard it is to research some simple Martial Arts history!

 

[Tayski]

It's not like a weeks hard work to up your IQ, LOL!

It's not about being hard work, or a challenge to my IQ. I just have zero interest for it.

You have to be really careful with the Youtube references you post because there's a shitload of difference between carefully followed lineages and the crossover partial systems.

I typed "Tang Soo Do sparring", and that's the videos I found, and guess what, it's also the sparring I saw and had a go at when I tried out Tang Soo Do. Then I typed "Shotokan sparring", and again that's the videos I found, and guess what, also the sparring I trained and competed in. So there's nothing to be careful about really.

I'm betting that your Shotokan lineage is broken and you are learning a watered down hybrid version. Post up your lineage line...I'll take the fuckin time to follow it back....Because that's what I do as a curious Martial Artist interested in quality teaching and technique.

I trained Shotokan under the JKA org for 2 years and then 3 years under the WKF org under highly competent and respected instructors, and I graded and competed in both orgs as a teenager while living in France. You're betting my Shotokan lineage is broken? Based on what facts exactly? It might not have been how they train it in Okinawa or Japan but it certainly was not a mcdojo.

I could go on, but I'm not the 1 whining about how hard it is to research some simple Martial Arts history!

I'm not whining, I'm saying it doesn't interest me. There's a difference. It's up to me to decide what I want to research and read about. I've tried Tang Soo Do and it's not a style I want to research or learn more about. Live with it.

 

[AshiharaFan]

I never expressed having disgust or a bad taste from TSD. I just said it's not really Karate, has origins in traditional Korean arts,

And I tried to get you to realize that this is patently untrue. There's no two ways about it. Korean nationalists and TSD elitists regurgitate this lie to make it seem like TSD has an origin and identity independent of Shotokan and Japanese Karate. People who are interested in knowing the fact of the matter (which you already stated you are not interested in which is cool with me) can do one of two things; simply believe this myth and go by the sentimental staus quo OR they can do their own research and study into every facet of TSD (it's birth, founder, development, sources used for it's syllabus, etc.) to ascertain if TSD is truthfully it's own independent art completely unrelated to Shotokan Karate as some people claim. I know enough about Shotokan Karate and TSD to know that TSD IS Korea's own twist on Shotokan Karate.

and that when I did try it out of curiosity it was quite different from what I had been doing for several years in Shotokan (the structure of the class, the names of the techniques, the type of sparring, etc.).

Of course the structure of the class and the NAMES of the techniques are different because they are being practiced in a different language and culture. I don't see anything amazing or spooky about that. But the TECHNIQUES THEMSELVES are exactly the same. The FORMS are the same. And Wang Kee did very, very little to make TSD have a different flavor to it's parent martial art of Shotokan Karate. It is NO COINCIDENCE or SURPRISE that TSD is widely labeled as KOREAN KARATE by both practitioners and non practitioners alike.

My other point is that this a Karate blackbelts list, so we should keep it to Karate and not try to include arts which some may consider "similar".

Fair enough. I think we already concluded that anyway as per Hotora86's response to my suggestion and I honestly don't have a problem with that. It was just a suggestion, nothing more.

I'm not interested in thoroughly reading up on the history of Wang Kee or Tang Soo Do. It's really not a style I'm interested in.

That's fair enough as well. I too would not research something that I don't have a genuine interest in. But in that case I would try to exercise humility and acknowledge that those who do thoroughly research and study a subject that I have not done so myself will know more about that subject than me.

You can tell me all you want that I'm "Tang Soo Phobic" (wtf by the way),

Lighten up dude, it was just a joke. I was trying to throw a little humor into the conversation.

and that Shotokan has massively inspired the creation of Tang Soo Do, I have still seen first hand that it's different when I compare it with over 5 years of training and competing in Shotokan.

Based on your own personal experience. Fair enough.

Even if we look just at the syllabus and terminology, a gyaku tsuki or a jodan mawashi geri is the same in any Karate style be in Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Wado Ryu, Kyokushin etc.

That's because all of these styles are entrenched in the same language and culture which is Japanese. Of course they would be called the same thing in the same language. What's so amazing about that?

However it's just not called that in TSD.

And that's only because they are not using the Japanese language. They use the Korean language. But the actual techniques themselves are the exact same. This is a non argument and moot point to the utmost. What Japanese Karate refer to as a Seiken Ago Uchi is called a straight right/left or right/left cross by American boxers. Same mechanics but different languages and cultural backdrops.

Then if we look at the sparring, it just looks and feel a lot more like some kind of Tae Kwon Do or maybe even American Kickboxing rather than Shotokan sparring (the stance, the movement, the techniques used...):

I've done Tae Kwon Do AND Tang Soo Do and I can tell you that there are immense differences between the sparring styles of the two. I think you do have a point about TSD's sparring somewhat resembling American Kickboxing and I believe it has a lot to do with the huge numbers of TSD practitioners (Chuck Norris for example) pioneering the transition of American point Karate and American Freestyle Karate to American Kickboxing. That's the first reason. The second reason is that the TSD stylists here in the states were (and are) competing against other stylists in the point sparring circuit so they had to make some adjustments to their stances, tactics and technique delivery to accommodate them. BUT IN JAPAN Shotokan stylists have (and continue to) participated in almost EXCLUSIVE tournaments and I'm sure you know this just as well as anyone. So they did not (and do not) have to make the same adjustments to their sparring style in Japan as the Americans had to do in the United States.

Regardless of the reasons why I can concede and give you the differences in sparring styles. But I can always see your differences in sparring style and raise you the kihon, ido geiko and kata of Shotokan Karate being the exact same thing in Tang Soo Do. To deny Tang Soo Do is different from Shotokan Karate is like saying Enshin Karate is different from Ashihara Karate or Shinkyokushin is different from IKO1 (not trying to be an asshole here at all @shinkyoku ), or Shidokan is different from Kyokushin or Oyama Karate. Politics, organizations, teachers and leaders, languages and cultures aside THE ESSENCE OF THE SYSTEMS are the same things through and through. That goes for the aforementioned Japanese styles and organizations as well as TSD and Shotokan Karate.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Fact, Japan occupied the Korean peninsula!

Fact, Korean MA use the belt system because of the Japanese influence!

Fact, Japanese MA created the structure and techniques that Korean MA imitated to codify it's systems.

Yep, these facts are at the heart of the matter and I would have to wonder about anyone (practitioner or non practitioner) who would either ignore or disregard these facts when it comes to examining TSD and whether it's the same thing as Shotokan Karate or not.

 

[CFGroup]

Yep, these facts are at the heart of the matter and I would have to wonder about anyone (practitioner or non practitioner) who would either ignore or disregard these facts when it comes to examining TSD and whether it's the same thing as Shotokan Karate or not.

As I said it would be actually an enjoyable half afternoons internet research to compare the two systems and learn a shitload of cool stuff in the process.

As with so many here, they just don't do their homework, and have little intellectual curiosity beyond their entrenched ideology....Tho I'm still bigoted in refusing to understand how BJJ would be a primary MA I'd train for my old operational security service position...LOL!...further distorted by the "westernization" and dilution of historical systems and the origin of them.

 

[AshiharaFan]

As I said it would be actually an enjoyable half afternoons internet research to compare the two systems and learn a shitload of cool stuff in the process.

Yeah, just learning something new about the combat arts is always an enjoyable thing to me.

As with so many here, they just don't do their homework, and have little intellectual curiosity beyond their entrenched ideology

Unfortunately we're always going to have that to deal with. That's just how it is. But I think it's sad because that way of thinking prevents so many people from separating the wheat from the chaff.

....Tho I'm still bigoted in refusing to understand how BJJ would be a primary MA I'd train for my old operational security service position...LOL!...further distorted by the "westernization" and dilution of historical systems and the origin of them.

Woah, I sure hope that isn't mandatory. Damn shame if it is. I don't even know where to begin on BJJ or even if I should lest some jimmies around here get seriously rustled.

 

[Hotora86]

Then if we look at the sparring, it just looks and feel a lot more like some kind of Tae Kwon Do or maybe even American Kickboxing rather than Shotokan sparring (the stance, the movement, the techniques used...):





Do those 2 videos above look like this:


or this:

Woah, heated discussion going on in my thread, nice.

I think TSD in Europe looks a bit different from TSD in the US, since, to be honest with you, the first two sparring videos look kinda crappy to me (apart from the spin kicks, those were nice). I mean, I understand the ruleset and so on but even JCVD knew that "you don't win fights with that TIP TAP SHIT!"

EDIT: here's a polish TSD vid I found:



Yes, there is still a lot of "tip tap shit" going on BUT usually the tip-tappers are the ones getting hit, even knocked out. Lots more punches and with decent power. Still not the pinnacle of the sport but these colored belts look better to me than the US black belts, at the very least in using their hands.

 

[Tayski]

Woah, heated discussion going on in my thread, nice.

I think TSD in Europe looks a bit different from TSD in the US, since, to be honest with you, the first two sparring videos look kinda crappy to me (apart from the spin kicks, those were nice). I mean, I understand the ruleset and so on but even JCVD knew that "you don't win fights with that TIP TAP SHIT!"

EDIT: here's a polish TSD vid I found:



Yes, there is still a lot of "tip tap shit" going on BUT usually the tip-tappers are the ones getting hit, even knocked out. Lots more punches and with decent power. Still not the pinnacle of the sport but these colored belts look better to me than the US black belts, at the very least in using their hands.

That TSD style still looks very different to the Shotokan style of sparring and fighting. That's what I was trying to show with those videos.

 

[Hotora86]

That TSD style still looks very different to the Shotokan style of sparring and fighting. That's what I was trying to show with those videos.

Point taken.

 

[Tayski]

For me it's a lot more telling to actually train in an art and observe and try what the style of fighting is like rather than trying to figure out where the art has its roots and what inspired its creator.

Unfortunately you have people who only accept their opinion as the truth, and even though I've trained a long time in Shotokan and actually gave TSD a go and haven't disrespected it whatsover, they're still butt hurt that I'm asking not to include TSD blackbelts in a "Karate Blackbelts" thread.

Then when they ask me several times why I don't what to include TSD in a Karate blackbelts thread and I actually take the time to give them my reasons, they're just trying to argue them back.

Don't ask me about my opinion if all you're waiting for is to argue it back at all costs.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

the tsd I did was quite a bit different from what I've seen in this thread. The stuff on here looks more like itf tkd. The tsd i learned had a more squared stance and relied more on punching and throws.

 

[AshiharaFan]

the tsd I did was quite a bit different from what I've seen in this thread. The stuff on here looks more like itf tkd. The tsd i learned had a more squared stance and relied more on punching and throws.

Same here. Our stance was squared and side on just like in typical Shotokan Karate and we sparred in the same fashion. As I said earlier trying out one class is nowhere near enough training time to come to an honest and accurate conclusion. It takes a certain level of dishonesty and immaturity for a person to do that. I actually trained TSD for a couple years. Huge difference.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Same here. Our stance was squared and side on just like in typical Shotokan Karate and we sparred in the same fashion. As I said earlier trying out one class is nowhere near enough training time to come to an honest and accurate conclusion. It takes a certain level of dishonesty and immaturity for a person to do that. I actually trained TSD for a couple years. Huge difference.

yes I believe its called a "hard style" of karate because of our low stance. I believe alot of power comes from it. I'm interested in what you mean by squared and side on. You mean like a front stance and then a side stance?

 

[AshiharaFan]

I'm interested in what you mean by squared and side on. You mean like a front stance and then a side stance?

No, I meant the standard sparring stance that Shotokan point competitors use. At the dojang I trained at we had the same stance and fought in the same point sparring fashion. No differences.

 

[Tayski]

Same here. Our stance was squared and side on just like in typical Shotokan Karate and we sparred in the same fashion. As I said earlier trying out one class is nowhere near enough training time to come to an honest and accurate conclusion. It takes a certain level of dishonesty and immaturity for a person to do that. I actually trained TSD for a couple years. Huge difference.

Dishonesty and immaturity?
Get down your high horse and stop throwing insults. Most people criticise a martial art without even ever trying it out. I took the time and curiosity of actually trying it and not just judging it from online content only. I'm not going to invest 2 years of training in an art I'm not interested in. I think that's common sense. However when I actually do look at online content like videos, I see exactly the same thing that I tried out. Can you show me videos of Tang Soo Do with the same style of sparring / fighting as Shotokan?

Also, I never said anything negative about TSD, just that it shouldn't be in list of Karate blackbelts in my opinion, are you ever going to get over it?
Hotora86 doesn't want to include it either.

Not everyone shares your opinion and you seem to really struggle with that.