Karate blackbelts in MMA

And BJJ came from Judo, does that make Royce Gracie a Judoka? ;)
Well, the Gracies basically learned regular Judo ne-waza and simply slapped their name on it so... :D
 
And BJJ came from Judo, does that make Royce Gracie a Judoka? ;)

Well as has been mentioned before, one problem here is that the term "karate" is not well-defined. It's a pretty broad, general term, especially today.

Take something like boxing. Boxing today looks very different than it did 200 years ago when guys were fighting like this:


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Boxing, and boxing technique, have clearly evolved since then. But do people say it's not boxing anymore? Or do they just accept that the style of fighting will change over time?

It seems like some people don't think karate should be allowed to evolve and, when it does, they say it's not karate anymore. One might well ask in that case: Why not? It seems logical that people will develop modern forms of karate, forms that are rooted in the old styles but that have modern sensibilities.

In regard to sport karate in particular, while I'm not an expert, I have checked out some sport karate schools--the kind of schools that would compete in NASKA and NBL tournaments---and they all had the usual trappings of karate: gis, kata, kobudo, etc. So some of the earlier claims that sport karate schools don't have these things are, to my experience at least, not true. After all, every sport karate tournament that I'm aware of has kata competitions, which in fact seem to be even more popular than the sparring competitions.

But let's say that's actually true, that there's some sport karate place out there that have totally gotten rid of the gi and gotten rid of the katas, but the techniques are still derived from classical karate. Perhaps it's even a hybridized form consisting of boxing-style punches with karate kicks (which is basically what kickboxing was in the United States in the 70s, 80s and 90s). Is it not karate anymore? Or is it instead an evolution of karate, much like boxing today evolved from boxing of yesteryear?

That's probably a question with no clear, objective answer.

But regardless, to get back to my statement about sport karate, it is quite clear that the vast majority of people who come from sport karate backgrounds (like Stephen Thompson), do come from schools with those usual things that one looks for when trying to identify a karate system.
 
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Well, the Gracies basically learned regular Judo ne-waza and simply slapped their name on it so... :D

Shit posting aside - I genuinely don't think there is enough difference between point style karate and taekwondo to consider them different martial arts - I was talking to @AshiharaFan about this and he seemed to agree. I'd say there's more difference between kyokushin karate and shotokan than there is between shotokan and taekwondo.

I've been thinking about this a lot because I've been doing a lot of research into the Muay Thai family of martial arts, including Muay Lao, Tomoi Lethwei etc. - I've been talking to the number 1 expert on it as well, a guy who's trained in all of them - and he has essentially said that it's all just Muay Thai under different name.

I think aside from things like form - the difference to me is how it changes the athlete as a fighter.

I don't think there is a lot of difference between a shotokan and taekwondo fighter, or a lethwei and muay thai fighter save for a few techniques here and there - when it comes to form.

But I think BJJ and Judo is more distance than Judo and Sambo - where sambo is essentially Judo with the old banned moves back in legally, and less restriction on body locks - but as athletes they're not as different as BJJ and Judo - where the focus on ground game means that BJJ fighters develop a very different technical skill set and no where near the level of explosive athleticism as judo.

I know this thread isn't about Judo, but that's just my thoughts on whether X = Y
 
Shit posting aside - I genuinely don't think there is enough difference between point style karate and taekwondo to consider them different martial arts - I was talking to @AshiharaFan about this and he seemed to agree. I'd say there's more difference between kyokushin karate and shotokan than there is between shotokan and taekwondo.

I've been thinking about this a lot because I've been doing a lot of research into the Muay Thai family of martial arts, including Muay Lao, Tomoi Lethwei etc. - I've been talking to the number 1 expert on it as well, a guy who's trained in all of them - and he has essentially said that it's all just Muay Thai under different name.

I think aside from things like form - the difference to me is how it changes the athlete as a fighter.

I don't think there is a lot of difference between a shotokan and taekwondo fighter, or a lethwei and muay thai fighter save for a few techniques here and there - when it comes to form.

But I think BJJ and Judo is more distance than Judo and Sambo - where sambo is essentially Judo with the old banned moves back in legally, and less restriction on body locks - but as athletes they're not as different as BJJ and Judo - where the focus on ground game means that BJJ fighters develop a very different technical skill set and no where near the level of explosive athleticism as judo.

I know this thread isn't about Judo, but that's just my thoughts on whether X = Y
I was joking about Judo = BJJ...

And while I agree that Shotokan is much more similar to TKD than it is to Kyokushin I'm not going to lump TKD in here because I will get MAD SHIT for it. :p At least both Shotokan and Kyokushin identify themselves as Karate. TKD doesn't.
 
Shit posting aside - I genuinely don't think there is enough difference between point style karate and taekwondo to consider them different martial arts - I was talking to @AshiharaFan about this and he seemed to agree. I'd say there's more difference between kyokushin karate and shotokan than there is between shotokan and taekwondo.

I think it depends a lot on what kind of taekwondo you're talking about here.

ITF Taekwondo shares many similarities with Shotokan, but due to the fact that the competition sparring is more like kickboxing than it is like Shotokan stop-point fighting, ITF TKD guys move differently and there's a lot less emphasis on sudden blitz attacks.

WTF/Olympic TKD really has distanced itself from its karate roots (TKD largely came directly from karate, after all) and, while punching techniques exist in the system, the emphasis is so much on the kicks that they might as well not.

Having tried my hand at all three (Shotokan, ITF TKD, WTF TKD) I do think that Shotokan and TKD are much more similar than, say, Shotokan and Muay Thai or Shotokan and Hung Gar Kung Fu. The core techniques are largely the same (front kicks, round kicks, reverse punches, spinning back kicks, high blocks, etc). But the way those techniques are implemented and the overall approach to fighting is visibly different.
 
I was joking about Judo = BJJ...

And while I agree that Shotokan is much more similar to TKD than it is to Kyokushin I'm not going to lump TKD in here because I will get MAD SHIT for it. :p At least both Shotokan and Kyokushin identify themselves as Karate. TKD doesn't.

After my karate combat video triggered a thousand karateka who seemed to hallucinate me saying things that I didn't - I've decided that I live to trigger TMA guys :p
 
@Hotora86, I'm surprise you haven't had more to say about my last few posts.

I figured you'd have a perspective you'd like to add.
 
After my karate combat video triggered a thousand karateka who seemed to hallucinate me saying things that I didn't - I've decided that I live to trigger TMA guys :p
Huh? Did I miss that? Please point me to it so I may also be triggered. :D
 
@Hotora86, I'm surprise you haven't had more to say about my last few posts.

I figured you'd have a perspective you'd like to add.
Kudos for the extensive input. I've nothing to add simply because I agree with every word. :D That and I'm working from home on a tiny laptop which isn't comfortable for typing. :p
 
It wasn't called "Karate" until Funakoshi in Japan decided to use that name for it and introduced the dogi and belt system from Judo. So by definition what was practiced before those times in Okinawa was "Te" and not "Karate".

Karate was originally referred to as tou-te in Okinawan.

In Japanese ’Tou’ is pronounced as Kara. It was already referred to as Kara-te in Japanese prior to Funakoshi.

Kara-te (tote in Okinawan) originally meant ‘Chinese hand’ - all Funakoshi did was keep the pronunciation but change the character to mean open instead of Chinese.

You can check it here (where I first read about it):
http://www.karatebyjesse.com/karate-name-meaning/


The art of Karate (previously called Te) isn't indigenous to Japan but that's where the term "Karate" and the Japanese formalities were added to it. They do have their own language in Okinawa indeed and terms like Makiwara come from that language but in Okinawa they actually use a lot of Japanese terms for the techniques, stances, and even some of the weapons like the bo and the kama etc.

Japanese formalities were added to Karate for sure - but to make the art more relatable to the Japanese.

Karate was an import to Japan from Okinawa. Even the Japanese changed the original Okinawan terminology of Karate. Not that it really matters. But if you are going to critique Kenpo for changing the terminology - you’d have to be equally critical of the Japanese doing the exact same thing. Then by your definition Japanese Karate shouldn’t qualify as Karate either.

The reason that Japanese terminology is now a big part of Okinawan Karate is because Okinawa over time was assimilated into Japan - in terms of language/society. The school system made it a priority to read/write in Japanese - so the native Okinawan language has been replaced over generations and the same happened with Okinawan terminology in Karate. Some managed to stay like makiwara etc.

Now it’s pretty much a dying language that only older generation Karate masters still retain.

The point is using Japanese terminology as part of the criteria for what is or isn’t Karate is problematic because they appropriated the art themselves and changed the terminology too.
 
Shit posting aside - I genuinely don't think there is enough difference between point style karate and taekwondo to consider them different martial arts - I was talking to @AshiharaFan about this and he seemed to agree. I'd say there's more difference between kyokushin karate and shotokan than there is between shotokan and taekwondo.

I've been thinking about this a lot because I've been doing a lot of research into the Muay Thai family of martial arts, including Muay Lao, Tomoi Lethwei etc. - I've been talking to the number 1 expert on it as well, a guy who's trained in all of them - and he has essentially said that it's all just Muay Thai under different name.

I think aside from things like form - the difference to me is how it changes the athlete as a fighter.

I don't think there is a lot of difference between a shotokan and taekwondo fighter, or a lethwei and muay thai fighter save for a few techniques here and there - when it comes to form.

But I think BJJ and Judo is more distance than Judo and Sambo - where sambo is essentially Judo with the old banned moves back in legally, and less restriction on body locks - but as athletes they're not as different as BJJ and Judo - where the focus on ground game means that BJJ fighters develop a very different technical skill set and no where near the level of explosive athleticism as judo.

I know this thread isn't about Judo, but that's just my thoughts on whether X = Y


Personally while TKD definitely shares a root with Shotokan imo they are different arts. But I wouldn’t complain if someone mentioned how similar they are - they share similarities.

I’m looking specifically at the syllabus/ethos of both styles. That’s where I feel they differ. Some techniques are the same but most of the forms/kata are different to Karate, as well as physical requirements, how each style is trained & structured - how some techniques aren’t shared like 360 kick for example. On top of that the ethos/culture of both styles significantly differ.

ITF is closer to Shotokan than WTF - but even then I feel there are enough differences that you can classify them as separate arts.

On the other hand - Kyokushin is closer imho to Shotokan than TKD.

The ethos of Kyokushin is pretty identical to Japanese Karate. Add to that the syllabus is also identical to most of Karate - it shares the same kata/forms as goju/Shotokan, the same techniques and similar training structure.

Also add to that in TKD you’re wearing the dobok while in Kyokushin you’re wearing the gi.

The only difference between Shotokan & Kyokushin really is the sparring/competition formats (this is where TKD is closer to Shotokan).

I mean if you watch Kyokushin clicker tournaments and didn’t know that those were Kyokushin point fighters you’d think they might be Shotokan or a similar derived style.

That’s really imo what makes Shotokan & Kyokushin very different at least when both are applied. But even with this difference they still share more similarities with another than TKD does with Shotokan.
 
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Personally while TKD definitely shares a root with Shotokan imo they are different arts. But I wouldn’t complain if someone mentioned how similar they are - they share similarities.

I’m looking specifically at the syllabus/ethos of both styles. That’s where I feel they differ. Some techniques are the same but most of the forms/kata are different to Karate, as well as physical requirements, how each style is trained & structured - how some techniques aren’t shared like 360 kick for example. On top of that the ethos/culture of both styles significantly differ.

ITF is closer to Shotokan than WTF - but even then I feel there are enough differences that you can classify them as separate arts.

On the other hand - Kyokushin is closer imho to Shotokan than TKD.

The ethos of Kyokushin is pretty identical to Japanese Karate. Add to that the syllabus is also identical to most of Karate - it shares the same kata/forms as goju/Shotokan, the same techniques and similar training structure.

Also add to that in TKD you’re wearing the dobok while in Kyokushin you’re wearing the gi.

The only difference between Shotokan & Kyokushin really is the sparring/competition formats (this is where TKD is closer to Shotokan).

I mean if you watch Kyokushin clicker tournaments and didn’t know that those were Kyokushin point fighters you’d think they might be Shotokan or a similar derived style.

That’s really imo what makes Shotokan & Kyokushin very different at least when both are applied. But even with this difference they still share more similarities with another than TKD does with Shotokan.

Y'see I thought about the 360 degree kicks, but then I sort of came to the conclusion that adding an extra turn doesn't really change that it's a roundhouse kick, if you get my meaning.
 
I mean if you watch Kyokushin clicker tournaments and didn’t know that those were Kyokushin point fighters you’d think they might be Shotokan or a similar derived style.
I had no idea Kyokushin had point fighting tournaments! I just found a few vids on YT and I can't really agree with you - it doesn't look like Shotokan very much. The footwork is completely different and the gratuitous amount of lead hand tetsui and uraken was just... weird.





No offense but perhaps Kyokushin should just stick to what it's best at - knockdown rules. Kyokushin doing point fighting just looks odd.
 
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You know who seriously looks like he does Karate point fighting for a living (even though he never did)?

200.gif


Odd, isn't it?
{<huh}
 
I've had way too many people lately to try to tell me that McGregor knows karate... he doesn't.

Jack Slack, who to be honest probably knows more about Conor McGregor than person who doesn't know him, said in preparation for his book, doing all the digging and research he could - that Conor's karate credentials are the same as his boxing - that it's so vague and the dates change, to the point where it seems to me (AndyMaBobs) that it's quite likely that those boxing credentials just didn't exist.

That and there has been nothing to indicate he's ever actually trained karate, he just swaggers around like he does. :p
 
I've had way too many people lately to try to tell me that McGregor knows karate... he doesn't.

Jack Slack, who to be honest probably knows more about Conor McGregor than person who doesn't know him, said in preparation for his book, doing all the digging and research he could - that Conor's karate credentials are the same as his boxing - that it's so vague and the dates change, to the point where it seems to me (AndyMaBobs) that it's quite likely that those boxing credentials just didn't exist.

That and there has been nothing to indicate he's ever actually trained karate, he just swaggers around like he does. :p

I believe I've seen some stuff where Conor was training karate with someone. I know for a fact that he's spent time training TKD. I remember that very clearly.
 
I've had way too many people lately to try to tell me that McGregor knows karate... he doesn't.

Jack Slack, who to be honest probably knows more about Conor McGregor than person who doesn't know him, said in preparation for his book, doing all the digging and research he could - that Conor's karate credentials are the same as his boxing - that it's so vague and the dates change, to the point where it seems to me (AndyMaBobs) that it's quite likely that those boxing credentials just didn't exist.

That and there has been nothing to indicate he's ever actually trained karate, he just swaggers around like he does. :p
He was/is training partners with gunnar nelson who is a bb in japanese goju ryu.
 
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