Karate blackbelts in MMA

[Jimmy Jazz]

That style doesn't work all that well in MMA either. Even though everybody likes to talk about how it's harder to cut someone off in the cage than in a ring, guys still get cut off all the time--especially those sideways, in-out TMA guys. As I said in my previous post, they all lose the same way once they hit a certain level of competition. I don't even mean this in an art vs art way, I'm saying that fundamentally you can't rely on linear movement unless there's no penalty or obstacle to prevent you from backing up forever, and you can't rely on long-range techniques forever when effective short-range techniques are allowed by the ruleset.

a certain level of competition? you mean the championship level given that both Pettis and Machida were UFC champions? All those guys who you mentioned have lost themselves. They all have holes in their game that made them lose. That doesnt invalidate their styles anymore than the tma guys, who's fighting styles are quite different from eachother in the cage. edit quoted you wrong.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

well the quote is wrong because traditional karate just doesnt use the side stance and hop around. Keep in mind he said karate or traditional karate, not just the styles that use the long stances exclusively. Goju and okinawan styles uses a square cat stance like kyokushin alot of the time and is rooted to the ground for strong strikes. The vast majority of techniques found in kk come from okinawan goju. Daniels isnt a more "traditional" karateka than any kk guy. Its just a different lineage. If anything his kenpo karate and tkd background make him less traditional overall. i know alot of karate people don't consider him such.

Honestly, I think it's a semantics thing. When he said traditional karate, I don't think he intended anyone to take it quite as specific. Plenty of traditional karate is side on, I think its a little pedantic to hang on every specific word

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Honestly, I think it's a semantics thing. When he said traditional karate, I don't think he intended anyone to take it quite as specific. Plenty of traditional karate is side on, I think its a little pedantic to hang on every specific word

I just don't think he has any knowledge of the okinawan styles. Which is essential if you are going to talk about karate.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

a certain level of competition? you mean the championship level given that both Pettis and Machida were UFC champions? All those guys who you mentioned have lost themselves. They all have holes in their game that made them lose. That doesnt invalidate their styles anymore than the tma guys, who's fighting styles are quite different from eachother in the cage. edit quoted you wrong.

Honestly, I wish people would stop using Pettis as an example. While he's got some fancy kicks, he trains under a muay thai coach and has said that his main influence as a fighter is Samart Payakaroon when it comes to those sniping body kicks. He's a far cry from a traditional tkd fighter.

I don't think anyones invalidating any particular style, just being realistic with trends we see in the sports we watch.

I always worry people will think I'm a muay thai elitist, as I do think its the best stand up style, but if I have something negative to say about Karate, it's not simply because it's karate. I mean a good Karateka will whoop my arse any day of the week

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I just don't think he has any knowledge of the okinawan styles. Which is essential if you are going to talk about karate.

Yeah I still don't agree
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/fighting-motives-the-kingdom-with-no-weapons
I'm not saying the dudes flawless, but I think if you're talking about analysts online he's the best guy out there

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Yeah I still don't agree
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/fighting-motives-the-kingdom-with-no-weapons
I'm not saying the dudes flawless, but I think if you're talking about analysts online he's the best guy out there

I'm not saying he is not a good analyst. I'm just saying if you are going to talk about traditional karate, you have to have knowledge of the okinawan styles. He seems like a shotokan guy who doesnt know anything beyond that. If you think he does have knowledge of the okinawan styles, why would he say that traditional karate is side on bouncing around? That sounds like japanese sport karate.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I'm not saying he is not a good analyst. I'm just saying if you are going to talk about traditional karate, you have to have knowledge of the okinawan styles. He seems like a shotokan guy who doesnt know anything beyond that. If you think he does have knowledge of the okinawan styles, why would he say that traditional karate is side on bouncing around? That sounds like japanese sport karate.

I can understand that perspective, but I think in that article I linked you he demonstrates a good knowledge and awareness of Okinawan martial arts - so I think you're maybe taking a one of quote from him a bit too seriously. I do think he definitely knows more about Shotokan that's for sure.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

I can understand that perspective, but I think in that article I linked you he demonstrates a good knowledge and awareness of Okinawan martial arts - so I think you're maybe taking a one of quote from him a bit too seriously. I do think he definitely knows more about Shotokan that's for sure.

thats strange . I saw a guy call him out, talking about how goju ryu wasnt side on, and he got kind of pissy and was like " oh like Gunnar Nelson bro?!" and the guy was Gunnar is japanese goju not okinawan goju, and Slack never responded. Its weird because that article was after the okinawan one you just posted. Honestly most of the stuff in that article is just stuff you could research pretty easily. He doesnt go in depth in terms of technique. but I'm sure as far as mma goes he's good.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

thats strange . I saw a guy call him out, talking about how goju ryu wasnt side on, and he got kind of pissy and was like " oh like Gunnar Nelson bro?!" and the guy was Gunnar is japanese goju not okinawan goju, and Slack never responded. Its weird because that article was after the okinawan one you just posted. Honestly most of the stuff in that article is just stuff you could research pretty easily. He doesnt go in depth in terms of technique. but I'm sure as far as mma goes he's good.

That might have been me actually! If it was on facebook, I replied to that dude saying that Slack made a mistake and that Gunnar is a Japanese Goju one. I made the comment a while ago though so I don't remember my exact words

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

That might have been me actually! If it was on facebook, I replied to that dude saying that Slack made a mistake and that Gunnar is a Japanese Goju one. I made the comment a while ago though so I don't remember my exact words

lol small world

 

[a guy]

a certain level of competition? you mean the championship level given that both Pettis and Machida were UFC champions? All those guys who you mentioned have lost themselves. They all have holes in their game that made them lose. That doesnt invalidate their styles anymore than the tma guys, who's fighting styles are quite different from eachother in the cage. edit quoted you wrong.

I'm not looking to invalidate styles. Yes, those guys made it to the championship level. They're extremely talented and skilled fighters. I'm not trying to take away from them. I'm just pointing out that they have certain stylistic weaknesses that always get taken advantage of sooner or later. Every style has it's flaws, and that's actually why I pointed to such high level fighters. Clearly they're all great fighters, but no matter how far they've taken that skillset it always gets shut down by the same game plan.

The takeaway here is that a solution needs to be found to those problems I listed. The style very obviously works, now we need some guys to make it work even against a disciplined, pressuring, body/leg and wrestling based attack.

 

[ildottore]

What's an example of an Okinawan karateka in MMA or kickboxing?

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

What's an example of an Okinawan karateka in MMA or kickboxing?

kikuno was doing well for a while.

 

[CFGroup]

well the quote is wrong because traditional karate just doesnt use the side stance and hop around. Keep in mind he said karate or traditional karate, not just the styles that use the long stances exclusively. Goju and okinawan styles uses a square cat stance like kyokushin alot of the time and is rooted to the ground for strong strikes. The vast majority of techniques found in kk come from okinawan goju. Daniels isnt a more "traditional" karateka than any kk guy. Its just a different lineage. If anything his kenpo karate and tkd background make him less traditional overall. i know alot of karate people don't consider him such.

Jeez thanks for pointing that out!

The Japanese trained GoJu guy I trained with was like sparring a psycho concrete Tasmanian devil in a fucking phone booth,...We actually coined that phrase for drills and sparring. So many techniques are from standing grappling range.

Grabbing and pulling an opponent into tight mechanical strikes is GoJu bread and butter.

It's the fucking Americans who watered down kickboxing and dabbled a bit of side stance and movement into the "sport". I'm sure someone can educate me on that history. My guess is it's from a TKD hodge podge or sport oriented adaption to make Martial Arts more palatable for the reconstruction mandates imposed on Japanese culture. Not that lineage TKD is anything to take lightly from experience.

Remember that post WW2 GI's posted for a year would train, get a symbolic BB cause the Japanese were happy to laugh at the gullible Americans, come back and cobble bits and pieces together and go teach. It wasn't till mustered service guys like Dave went back over and Uchi Deshi(live in student) for 5 or 6 years, that America got the full lineage arts to train...One of the reasons I harp on lineage so much.

Most American so called Japanese Karate is crap. Anyone who finds the real thing gets how unlike any of the flashy gym trappings we see at the mall McDojo's.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Jeez thanks for pointing that out!

The Japanese trained GoJu guy I trained with was like sparring a psycho concrete Tasmanian devil in a fucking phone booth,...We actually coined that phrase for drills and sparring. So many techniques are from standing grappling range.

Grabbing and pulling an opponent into tight mechanical strikes is GoJu bread and butter.

It's the fucking Americans who watered down kickboxing and dabbled a bit of side stance and movement into the "sport". I'm sure someone can educate me on that history. My guess is it's from a TKD hodge podge or sport oriented adaption to make Martial Arts more palatable for the reconstruction mandates imposed on Japanese culture. Not that lineage TKD is anything to take lightly from experience.

Remember that post WW2 GI's posted for a year would train, get a symbolic BB cause the Japanese were happy to laugh at the gullible Americans, come back and cobble bits and pieces together and go teach. It wasn't till mustered service guys like Dave went back over and Uchi Deshi(live in student) for 5 or 6 years, that America got the full lineage arts to train...One of the reasons I harp on lineage so much.

Most American so called Japanese Karate is crap. Anyone who finds the real thing gets how unlike any of the flashy gym trappings we see at the mall McDojo's.

I know man. this is definitely not "traditional karate." American karate is def a mixed bag.

 

[ARIZE]

I always worry people will think I'm a muay thai elitist

Oh don't worry about that...liking punches and other traitorous techniques. We all know what you really are...Game recognize game, man, and you aint a player...

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Oh don't worry about that...liking punches and other traitorous techniques. We all know what you really are...Game recognize game, man, and you aint a player...

I belong to the church Pornsaneh. Punches all day baby.

 

[ARIZE]

Blasphemy! Heresy! At least those karatekas have an excuse, they have never seen the light, they only know life in the swamp. But you choose to turn your back on purity, while having tasted it... There is no saving you when the time of the MT revolution™ comes.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

#SitmonchaiNation
#PunchersPrideWorldWide

 

[Azam]

I'd say I agree with the quote in your reply. Raymond Daniels' is a great example, he gets mauled every time he's against a half decent kickboxer, and he gets trapped by the ropes all the time. I did correct him about Okinawan Goju on facebook once, but I think a lot of what he says about karate in kickboxing is correct.

You tend to find the guys who do better at kickboxing, tend to abandon a lot of their karate. I mentioned that earlier in this thread - I think that if the long stanced, long ranged in and out footwork heavy style of karate was really fitting for kickboxing, you'd see more guys having success with it - but at the highest levels they don't seem to do very well.

The Kyokushin style guys have done well in kickboxing, but the more side on guys haven't had near the success, probably because the style isn't suited for a small ring with hard corners.

Point fighters have issues in kickboxing because the styles of karate they practice aren't really suited for kickboxing.

First the range is the biggest issue (as we all know) but something that's rarely ever talked about is that many karate styles especially those with point fighting rule sets don't really teach combinations like you find in kickboxing - the focus tends to be on very short combinations which don't hinder your mobility or potshots - great in MMA when you're dealing with grappling elements not so great in kickboxing where combinations are a must especially at that closer range. That's why I feel point fighters have had more success in MMA than other styles of karate.

That's where point fighters run in to trouble as far as kickboxing is concerned.

On the other hand kyokushin & full contact stylists tend to do significantly better because the ranges are not far off, combination work is similar & the level of intensity and impact means they are less likely to encounter the same issues that point fighters have.

The ring does come in to it for sure but I think it's a bit over-stated - I think the above plays a more of a role. Of course point fighting & mobility are much more suitable on a tatami with no borders like you find in point fighting competitions - there's that also.