Judo blackbelts ground proficiency?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by SAMURAI SPIRIT, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. SAMURAI SPIRIT Blue Belt

    SAMURAI SPIRIT
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    Question for those who have experience in both Judo and BJJ. What exactly is the proficiency level of a judo black belt when it comes to ground fighting? Would a Judo black belt hold his own against a BJJ blue belt on the ground? Or would he be equal to a BJJ purple with limited arsenal but greater proficiency?
     
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  2. Bayonet Blue Belt

    Bayonet
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    Depends. There's a black belt at my Judo club who rolls at a purple-brown level, and I've known a few other newaza specialists who would likely hang with decent BJJ guys. However, I've also come across a lot of experienced Black belt judoka who have a very limited repertoire on the ground.

    Judo newaza levels are all over map.
     
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  3. RJ Green YAY JUDO!!!

    RJ Green
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    varies widely. you'll have people like Travis Stevens who's also a black belt in BJJ, then you'll have the people he armbarred in the olympics who are allergic to groundwork.

    the biggest weaknesses in the Judo ground game are:

    - the lack of leg lock offense/defense
    - the reliance on a passive turtle
    - the lack of a standing offensive/defensive passing game
    - over-reliance on pins
    - pedantic techniques (side control with an arm between the legs instead of the shoulder hug, considering guillotine chokes to 'endanger the neck' despite thousands of BJJ and MMA matches where nobody's died, etc.)

    all are huge, huge holes in anyone's game. i can't decide of lack of exposure to leg locks or the lack of standing passes is worse...probably the latter: no SLX, no DLR.

    which does and doesn't make sense, especially with the current leg grab allergy. but if they got rid of that shit we'd be able to play standing passes and run the risk of being swept for ippon.

    alas, that's not dynamic or exciting enough for Vizer and company.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 12, 2017
  4. Bluesbreaker Brown Belt

    Bluesbreaker
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    They are very different sports that share some techniques. Some judo guys don't like groundwork, and they're good enough with the rest of their games in judo. Some will have very good judo ground games that don't translate well to the BJJ ruleset. Some will have games that do translate well.

    How are BJJ players' pins? How are their turtle games, both attacking and defending? How explosive are they on ground when they only have a limited time there?

    BJJ doesn't define the ground game. It's just a ruleset that generally allows more to happen now.
     
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  5. richardb White Belt

    richardb
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    Yes it varies a lot. In general Judo BB's will have strong pins and be good at attacking/defending a turtle position. Unless they cross-train BJJ they won't play different guard games or have any leg attacks. They tend to to give their back too easily. BUT they are usually very strong and aggressive, so what they may lack in options or finesse, they make up for toughness. I'd say blue belt level overall, but some guys put more time into their Newaza than others and will be higher than that.
     
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  6. todm White Belt

    todm
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    It varies but I'd say most judo BBs are at least blue belt level and maybe 1 in 4 is purple belt level (from my experience anyways). I did once roll with a Judo BB who was probably 2 stripe white belt level, but that's an extreme case.
     
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  7. Thrawn33 JUST BLEED Belt

    Thrawn33
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    Here's what matters.

    What rules?

    Otherwise, ask if a D1 All American is = to a BJJ WB.
     
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  8. rmongler Brown Belt

    rmongler
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    This is somewhat tangential thrawn, but i think people sometimes use the term 'all-american' somewhat imprecisely a generic term for 'good wrestler'.

    An All-American is a guy who placed top 8 in the National Tournament. Iow, we're not just talking about a good wrestler, not even a great wrestler, but a small handful of guys who beat all the great wrestlers, the very best of the best. We're talking about the wrestler you wish your wrestler could wrestle like.

    If one were to ever actually run into an All-American, that would be quite a stroke of fortune (or cursing your fortune, depending on the situation).
     
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    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
  9. Darkslide632 Brown Belt

    Darkslide632
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    I got my blue belt in about 3 months based where my ground game was.
     
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  10. ArtemV Red Belt

    ArtemV
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    Sure, they can usually hang with a blue belt and tap them. However, some of the green/blue belts in my judo club roll like white belts at bjj, and have bad base, have an easily passed guard and in general don't have a good idea of how to attack and defend. However, it gets better with the higher belts and we have good newaza rolling sessions when our coach tells us, it is competitive and we all have good fundamentals and our own little tricks on how to get to advantageous positions. However, Judo does come with it's own weaknesses...
     
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  11. Willyw White Belt

    Willyw
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    Been doing a lille bit of both, and first of all; you can`t compare a BJJ BB to a Judo BB. The work you needs to put down to get a Judo BB equals maybe a purple belt in BJJ.
    So in all fairness; you have to compare a fresh Judo BB to a BJJ Purple.

    Secondly I think a recent Judo BB is equal to the technique of a blue belt on the ground, with the strength and physique of a brown belt.. But I think this varies a lot from school to school. Where I train apx 40% is groundwork and 60% is standing. I imagine a lof of "our" guys would do very well in BJJ turnaments (especially against the "non-ass-sitters")...
     
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  12. Uchi Mata Gold Belt

    Uchi Mata
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    I hate the comparison, because the skill sets are very different.

    Things Judo BBs are usually good at on the ground:

    1. Attacking the turtle
    2. Holding a pin
    3. Passing half guard to get a pin
    4. Not getting submitted, turning to their bellies to avoid pins
    5. Attacking chokes and arm locks in transition from standing to the feet

    Things blue belts are usually good at (relatively speaking):

    1. Basic closed and open guard passing
    2. Basic closed and open guard play
    3. Basic subs from superior positions
    4. Submission defense
    5. Escapes

    These are two pretty distinct skill sets developed in reaction to two very different competitive rule sets. Direct comparisons aren't that useful. Typically, a good Judo BB will have much, much better overall grappling awareness and skill than a blue belt, but will have gaping holes in their knowledge of what would be needed to win BJJ matches. I would never give a Judo guy a blue belt as soon as he walked in the door, but I would expect him to pick up BJJ significantly faster than I would someone with no grappling experience, just as I would a good wrestler or Sambist. A lot of what makes a person good at grappling are the awareness, balance, reflexes, and instincts that are not style specific. My BJJ coach has no rank in Judo, but he's damned hard to take down because he has great balance, grip fights well, and more or less instinctively doesn't let you get good position on him (also as soon as you shoot he loop chokes you...a different problem).

    When I do BJJ style ne waza with nationally ranked Judoka who outweigh me by a 30 lbs, I murder them. Not because I'm a better grappler overall (they throw me around plenty), but because I have a better understanding of that meta-game and better command of the specific skills required to succeed in that domain.
     
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  13. 1tripz1 Orange Belt

    1tripz1
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    BJJ Black Belts standup ability?
     
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  14. RJ Green YAY JUDO!!!

    RJ Green
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    i'd say more BJJ black belts are able to hang standing with a Judo Black belt than a Judo black belt is able to hang rolling with a BJJ black belt. where a Judo guy is simply ignorant of a lot of the sweeps/postions of BJJ (and not looking to have his back taken after a throw for what would be ippon) a BJJ black belt has pretty spectacular positional awareness. they're not gonna stand up and play judo with a judo player.

    i mean, does the Judo guy still have better takedowns? probably. most likely yeah. but is the skill gap as large as it is on the ground? doubtful.

    this is why we cross-train.
     
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  15. BJ@LW&WW Gold Belt

    BJ@LW&WW
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    varies greatly player to player. also the gap between a low level black belt in judo and a decent one is pretty huge.
     
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  16. QingTian Purple Belt

    QingTian
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    I'm roughly the level of a fresh purple, and just had to learn how to pass BJJ guards and set up some subs from pins. Obviously the focus of my game is different than typical BJJ.

    I was average to above average on the ground, but in a very competitive Judo club. It took about a year of dropping in every other week to adapt to BJJ. Wasn't hard to pick up new moves each time, or just make it up as I go.
     
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  17. Hotora86 火虎 空手道

    Hotora86
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    Really depends on the club. I went to a Judo place where they trained 5 days a week but only spent one day on newaza. Black belts were great at pins and escaping subs but I don't think they'd sub a BJJ black belt. Defend for a long time - maybe. Win - no.

    Then again, our head coach was an old-school Judo 8th dan whose ground game was stellar. He did seminars a few times and would ask outsider BJJ guys to try and get out of his pin. They couldn't. It wasn't intended as a douche thing but just to show that pins are just as valuable as subs.
     
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  18. Thrawn33 JUST BLEED Belt

    Thrawn33
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    Or a competitive Judo BB vs a kata sensei guy, time-in judo BB at the lower dan levels.
     
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  19. tekkennlee Hot cars and fast girls

    tekkennlee
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    Depends on the teacher Judo uses Kata no way out Tap its like i quit
    old school will not tap fight till the death
     
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  20. tekkennlee Hot cars and fast girls

    tekkennlee
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    Katame No Kata
     
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