Joanna Jędrzejczyk

[aerius]

I'm not entirely familiar with top level female MT fighters that aren't Joanna and Valentina. That said, I don't rate Karolina all that highly. She did almost nothing to prevent Joanna from controlling distance. I think a Ferguson style fighter would give Joanna HUGE problems. She relies a lot on her reach and on being able to unload with volume that the opponent respects. Ferguson has a ton of reach and doesn't give a fuck what you hit him with, he's not stopping. Also, I'd be careful using Joe Schilling as an example considering he got knocked out in both MMA and kickboxing by an MMA fighter. I'd also pick a female Mendes or RDA to beat Joanna because I think she'd struggle with them stylistically when they forced her to work in the pocket (I'm picturing her getting rocked by Karolina and dropped by Gadelha). Definitely a female McGregor or Aldo would beat her, as well as a female Holloway for sure. Maybe I'm a sexist pig but I really don't rate her level of competition highly at all. Honestly she's one of maybe like 3 female MMA fighters who I believe are genuinely talented and skilled.

Definitely agreed on Karolina, she was pretty much shut out and reduced to landing a single digit number of strikes in each round until Joanna got careless and walked face first into a punch while trying to step in with an elbow from the outside that wasn't setup with anything. Karolina literally landed half her strikes in the 2 minutes following that punch, that's how badly she was being shut down in the fight.
And that was Joanna at her worst in some time, IMO she was still struggling with the transition between her old style and what she was learning at her new gym. She seemed to be fighting in a new style at times and then reverting to her old habits, and leaving gaps in her game that weren't there before or after. Karolina vs. the Joanna that we saw on Saturday would be painful to watch, it would be even more lopsided than GSP vs. Hardy.

As for styles, I don't think she'd have too much trouble with a female version of Mendes or RDA. Against Mendes, apply the Conor strategy of reach abuse and teeping the hell out of his body. A similar strategy can be used against RDA, except with more clinches and kicks when not near the cage. A Conor type fighter is also beatable, we apply the Samkor Kiatmontep strategy and blast the body with non-stop round kicks. You can't punch with the left hand when you're constantly blocking heavy round kicks to the body, and those body kicks will drain the gas tank real fast and possibly damage the arms as well. This also avoids the kill zone of Conor's left hand for the most part, and gets around the head movement used to setup the pull counters on the left straight. Hit the body, chop the lead leg, wait for Ms. McGregor to run out of gas, then open up the combos and finish.

Female Aldo would definitely beat her, footwork, defence, and overall game is just too tight. Holloway might be a tossup or have a slight edge, better head movement and has the advantage banging it out in the pocket, but I think they're fairly even on the outside with the clinch going to Joanna. Footwork, angle & range control, and defence isn't as tight as Aldo so there should be enough opportunities for Joanna to land, it's mostly a question of who can better find their best range and spend time there.

And finally, if you have some time, watch some of Antonina Shevchenko's fights. Trains with her sister, also has a bunch of world championships in MT and kickboxing, but they have distinctly different styles.

 

[Hotora86]

I actually have written about Joanna in the past:

http://cagecraft.net/index.php/2016/09/20/jedrzejczyk-vs-penne/

Penne Pasta. Good one.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Fair, we should keep the thread about Joanna.

I'm not entirely familiar with top level female MT fighters that aren't Joanna and Valentina. That said, I don't rate Karolina all that highly. She did almost nothing to prevent Joanna from controlling distance. I think a Ferguson style fighter would give Joanna HUGE problems. She relies a lot on her reach and on being able to unload with volume that the opponent respects. Ferguson has a ton of reach and doesn't give a fuck what you hit him with, he's not stopping. Also, I'd be careful using Joe Schilling as an example considering he got knocked out in both MMA and kickboxing by an MMA fighter. I'd also pick a female Mendes or RDA to beat Joanna because I think she'd struggle with them stylistically when they forced her to work in the pocket (I'm picturing her getting rocked by Karolina and dropped by Gadelha). Definitely a female McGregor or Aldo would beat her, as well as a female Holloway for sure. Maybe I'm a sexist pig but I really don't rate her level of competition highly at all. Honestly she's one of maybe like 3 female MMA fighters who I believe are genuinely talented and skilled.

All this sounds like I'm coming off really negative on Joanna, but I'm actually a huge fan of her. I posted a link before to something I wrote about her forever ago, and I think she's remarkably skilled. Definitely one of the most technical fighters in the sport and she does some really slick stuff. Joanna is fucking awesome, I just don't agree that she's better than all of the best men even if she's better than most.

Thats why I said Schillilng as a mid level guy - I see a lot of people claiming him as some super high level striker and he's really not, I don't think he's a total bum or anything though so I thought calling him mid level seems fair.

I think its a difficult discussion because we've also got to factor in what the average heights are for the division, because if we were talking a female McGregor but at strawweight, we'd also need to scale him down to the height he roughly is in comparison to that division, and considering she's only 3 inches shorter than him - I could see her still having that reach over him... and McGregor is kinda bad at boxing on the front foot.

I can see what you're getting at though. I think there's a definite drop in skill between the men and the woman - and unfortunately I don't see it ever really evening up between the two.

 

[Uchi Mata]

IDK about best striker in MMA. I can't see any way to justify ranking her over Aldo, McGregor, Holloway, Garbrandt, Dillashaw, dos Anjos, or other top men's strikers. The level of competition really can't be ignored. I get that we're all high on her after her amazing performance last night, but she's had less impressive striking performances too that we shouldn't ignore. She's a great striker, easily the best women's striker, but definitely not better than the best men.

I think she's probably better than RDA, Holloway, or Dillashaw, at least from a purely technical standpoint. I would say Aldo, Mac, and Garbrandt are better, though it's still a little early to tell with Cody as he hasn't had to face many different styles in extended matchups. She's certainly one of the smartest. Her use of her length and angles to basically take away any risk against Andrade was beautiful.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

I think it was like MM where the striking looking amazing against a plodding power puncher. (Wilson Reis)
One of the easiest types to strike with.

Don't get me wrong jj definitely hit a new level and is one of the absolute best strikers in mma. But it was an easy match up for her. She learned from the Karolina fight that's for sure, fights on the back foot super well now.

Even though she doesn't get hit a lot, sometimes she manages to get herself hit quite clean, almost makes her seem a little chinny

 

[a guy]

I think she's probably better than RDA, Holloway, or Dillashaw, at least from a purely technical standpoint. I would say Aldo, Mac, and Garbrandt are better, though it's still a little early to tell with Cody as he hasn't had to face many different styles in extended matchups. She's certainly one of the smartest. Her use of her length and angles to basically take away any risk against Andrade was beautiful.

I think she looks better than those guys, but it's because her level of competition is so low.

 

[a guy]

Thats why I said Schillilng as a mid level guy - I see a lot of people claiming him as some super high level striker and he's really not, I don't think he's a total bum or anything though so I thought calling him mid level seems fair.

I think its a difficult discussion because we've also got to factor in what the average heights are for the division, because if we were talking a female McGregor but at strawweight, we'd also need to scale him down to the height he roughly is in comparison to that division, and considering she's only 3 inches shorter than him - I could see her still having that reach over him... and McGregor is kinda bad at boxing on the front foot.

I can see what you're getting at though. I think there's a definite drop in skill between the men and the woman - and unfortunately I don't see it ever really evening up between the two.

I'd assume he'd be about equal to her in height and reach considering the reach advantage he has even at lightweight. I also don't think it's fair to say he's bad at boxing on the front foot. You don't drop Nate Diaz 3 times when you're bad at boxing on the front foot. But regardless, your last sentence is the real problem. Joanna shows off a ton of skills, but she's doing it against much worse fighters than the men are--both in terms of technique and athleticism. Despite that, she still got rocked by Karolina and had a very rough time with Gadelha before she gassed. Basically I want to see her tested against someone who can cut her off and force her to work in the pocket (Mendes or RDA style), and someone who has similar reach and isn't phased by her volume or kicking game (Ferguson or McGregor style). If she can continue looking as good as she does against legitimately skilled women like that, then sure I'll call her the best striker in MMA. Until then, she's one of the best strikers beating up a lot of mediocre strikers.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think she looks better than those guys, but it's because her level of competition is so low.

It's certainly possible, though I would note that both RDA and Holloway had fights against top flight competition in which they looked anything but impressive. RDA has had two. And for all his movement, Dillashaw wasn't terribly effective against Cruz either. If you're only going to rate guys based on their performances against the elite I think you still have to say that only Aldo (IMO the best striker in MMA, as long as he doesn't go batshit crazy and run into left hands), MacGregor, and Cody have looked equally good against scrubs and the very top of the division.

I will concede that in general it's very hard to know how good the best women are because their divisions are generally so weak. I mean, was Ronda ever really that good at MMA, or was she just a dominating grappler who never had to fight someone on her level athletically who knew how to use striking to defuse grappling, a skill you have to have to some degree to sniff the top of the division on the men's side? I think Holly and Nunes both showed us that she was never close to a complete package. I'd argue that Joanna has been tested a little more than Ronda had been during her undefeated streak, but still not nearly as much as any male champions. So how good is she really? It's hard to say, but it's not like she's relying on a very limited skill set that is going to fall apart against the first good fighter she fights like Ronda did. She has improved her wrestling defense, her striking has looked fantastic in her last few fights, the only real flaw I've seen recently is that she's pretty easy to rock so she can't always get into exchanges even if it might be her best chance to put someone away. I am looking forward to her fight against Rose, could easily be the toughest of her career thus far.

 

[Orion]

I am looking forward to her fight against Rose, could easily be the toughest of her career thus far.

Could you give your thoughts on why you feel this could be the toughest matchup of her career? To me it seems like it'll be one of the worst blowouts of JJ's dominant run. I can't think of any avenue where Rose can challenge Joanna -- she simply does everything better.

 

[Azam]

Also, I'd be careful using Joe Schilling as an example considering he got knocked out in both MMA and kickboxing by an MMA fighter.

To be fair to Schilling - Hisaki Kato isn't an MMA fighter - he is a kudo fighter and a striking specialist than switched over to mma. Kato is known in Kudo for being a striking specialist because that's his forte (if you've watched his mma fights he prefers standing/finishing on his feet rather than take it to the ground).

People made out in that fight that Hisaki Kato was some newbie or that Schilling was vastly better at striking. The truth was that there wasn't a real big difference (as both are primarily strikers - Schilling in kickboxing and Kato in Kudo) - the difference was that Kato had many many years of experience striking with smaller gloves sparring people with different striking styles (in kudo - a grappling/striking environment) whereas Schilling bulk of experience was in kickboxing/muay thai.

I think it's a bit unfair to question his ability or his mid-tier level status because of his lose to Kato. I think a lot of mid tier MT or kickboxers would have issues fighting Kato striking wise in MMA and I think his kickboxing loss was because he showed no respect to Kato. You don't beat a Kudo fighter by pressuring him (tournaments are aggressive pressuring fights all kudo guys know how to maneuver in those waters because they deal with it all the time in tournaments) - you beat them by picking him apart technically.


Edit: Also I think this whole thread is a bit weird. I don't think it really matters who or who isn't the best striker. It's subjective and what's the universally agreed criteria? Also does it even matter because we've all witnessed better strikers get beaten on the feet by fighters that aren't considered on the same level striking wise. Sure some might have better technique or application than others but when push comes to shove that doesn't always translate to being better as there are many variables at work like physicality for example.

 

[devante]

To be fair to Schilling - Hisaki Kato isn't an MMA fighter - he is a kudo fighter and a striking specialist than switched over to mma. Kato is known in Kudo for being a striking specialist because that's his forte (if you've watched his mma fights he prefers standing/finishing on his feet rather than take it to the ground).

People made out in that fight that Hisaki Kato was some newbie or that Schilling was vastly better at striking. The truth was that there wasn't a real big difference (as both are primarily strikers - Schilling in kickboxing and Kato in Kudo) - the difference was that Kato had many many years of experience striking with smaller gloves sparring people with different striking styles (in kudo - a grappling/striking environment) whereas Schilling bulk of experience was in kickboxing/muay thai.

I think it's a bit unfair to question his ability or his mid-tier level status because of his lose to Kato. I think a lot of mid tier MT or kickboxers would have issues fighting Kato striking wise in MMA and I think his kickboxing loss was because he showed no respect to Kato. You don't beat a Kudo fighter by pressuring him (tournaments are aggressive pressuring fights all kudo guys know how to maneuver in those waters because they deal with it all the time in tournaments) - you beat them by picking him apart technically.


Edit: Also I think this whole thread is a bit weird. I don't think it really matters who or who isn't the best striker. It's subjective and what's the universally agreed criteria? Also does it even matter because we've all witnessed better strikers get beaten on the feet by fighters that aren't considered on the same level striking wise. Sure some might have better technique or application than others but when push comes to shove that doesn't always translate to being better as there are many variables at work like physicality for example.

when they kept talking about the huge striking advantage schilling had, i was like wtf are they talking about; he is at least as tenured a striker as schilling. Another ex of a lack of information results in announcers misrepresenting a fighters chance or the direction of a fight; schilling losing wasnt an upset to me at all. Schilling is good, but he aint that nice w/the hands and feet; better than most mma guys sure, but really what the hell is that saying..

an even w/that he had clear lines to defeat...

secondly everyone knows you don't pressure a kudo guy, not if your looking to be efficient and give yourself the best shot at success... i was watching saying what the FUCK is he doing...he is about to get smoked...

but as i said if its not boxing kickboxing mt, most fighters and announcers won't know enough to prepare or counter or explain it properly.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Could you give your thoughts on why you feel this could be the toughest matchup of her career? To me it seems like it'll be one of the worst blowouts of JJ's dominant run. I can't think of any avenue where Rose can challenge Joanna -- she simply does everything better.

The length and athleticism, mostly. Plus Rose's striking is coming along nicely, and she has more power than anyone JJ has fought thus far. I also think that Rose could put her in trouble on the ground in a way that no one thus far has been able to. FWIW I do think JJ will win, but I think Rose will have her moments, more than Andrade did.

The most interesting fight out there for JJ IMO is Shevchenko at 125, which I expect will happen within a year or two after that division gets off the ground.

 

[aerius]

The length and athleticism, mostly. Plus Rose's striking is coming along nicely, and she has more power than anyone JJ has fought thus far. I also think that Rose could put her in trouble on the ground in a way that no one thus far has been able to. FWIW I do think JJ will win, but I think Rose will have her moments, more than Andrade did.

I think the only way Rose has her moments is if she can surprise Joanna with spinning shit or flying kicks, or possibly jumping guard for a submission.

The problem for Rose is she's still fairly predictable in her sequences, she likes to setup on the outside then bounce in with a feint or attack and back out on straight lines. In the Waterson fight, Michelle was able to plant a side kick on Rose's lead leg almost every time she bounced into range, but it was always one shot and done, she never followed up on it. Do that against Joanna and she's screwed, JJ will hit her with a low kick and immediately follow up with more punches and strikes. Rose's stance & movement leaves her vulnerable to Joanna's low kicks & follow-ups, she'll get her leg chopped out and eat a lot of punches. And when it gets to the clinch she's going to be badly abused, Joanna's clinch control is 2nd only to Valentina on the women's side but she's far more active & vicious when clinching with opponents.

IMO Rose will get run over pretty handily, it might not be GSP vs. Dan Hardy bad but it's going to be pretty lopsided.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think the only way Rose has her moments is if she can surprise Joanna with spinning shit or flying kicks, or possibly jumping guard for a submission.

The problem for Rose is she's still fairly predictable in her sequences, she likes to setup on the outside then bounce in with a feint or attack and back out on straight lines. In the Waterson fight, Michelle was able to plant a side kick on Rose's lead leg almost every time she bounced into range, but it was always one shot and done, she never followed up on it. Do that against Joanna and she's screwed, JJ will hit her with a low kick and immediately follow up with more punches and strikes. Rose's stance & movement leaves her vulnerable to Joanna's low kicks & follow-ups, she'll get her leg chopped out and eat a lot of punches. And when it gets to the clinch she's going to be badly abused, Joanna's clinch control is 2nd only to Valentina on the women's side but she's far more active & vicious when clinching with opponents.

IMO Rose will get run over pretty handily, it might not be GSP vs. Dan Hardy bad but it's going to be pretty lopsided.

Probably. But I also thought Waterson would handily outstrike her, and that didn't happen. Whether that was because of a decline on Waterson's part or Rose getting better I don't know, but I tend to think it was the latter. Wittman's a good coach and she's a great athlete, I'm not going to assume she comes in with no game plan or answer for the things JJ does so consistently.

 

[SeverianB]

Probably. But I also thought Waterson would handily outstrike her, and that didn't happen. Whether that was because of a decline on Waterson's part or Rose getting better I don't know, but I tend to think it was the latter. Wittman's a good coach and she's a great athlete, I'm not going to assume she comes in with no game plan or answer for the things JJ does so consistently.

Rose has good striking and long reach. She was actually outstriking Karolina in thier fight until they ended up clinching. I thought Waterson was the one who showed improvement, as she was actually outstriking Rose everywhere, punches, kicks even clinch until Rose landed that headkick.... none of which I would have guessed before the fight.

We saw the best Rose ever against Michelle and that Rose will get destroyed if she tries to stand with Joanna.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Rose has good striking and long reach. She was actually outstriking Karolina in thier fight until they ended up clinching. I thought Waterson was the one who showed improvement, as she was actually outstriking Rose everywhere, punches, kicks even clinch until Rose landed that headkick.... none of which I would have guessed before the fight.

We saw the best Rose ever against Michelle and that Rose will get destroyed if she tries to stand with Joanna.

It sounds weird to say about a fighter that wins some and loses some like Rose Namajunas does, but I think Rose really is a spoiler in the same way that Rick Story and Nate Diaz are. I think she's a fighter who is great at beating hyped up prospects even if she's not the greatest fighter herself.

While I do think Joanna is undoubtedly the better striker of the two, I think Rose poses the most threat to her out of the whole division. She has great killer instinct, very aggressive submissions (she may not be the most technically refined, but in her division she hasn't really needed to be) and to her credit is pretty technically refined. The only thing she was having major trouble with from Waterson was the side kick to the knee, which in fairness is not a technique that Joanna uses.

I think with her reach, she could actually be more of a problem from Joanna than anyone she's faced before. I would say that I think Joanna would win - but if Rose beat her, it wouldn't come as a total shock to me.

 

[Uchi Mata]

It sounds weird to say about a fighter that wins some and loses some like Rose Namajunas does, but I think Rose really is a spoiler in the same way that Rick Story and Nate Diaz are. I think she's a fighter who is great at beating hyped up prospects even if she's not the greatest fighter herself.

While I do think Joanna is undoubtedly the better striker of the two, I think Rose poses the most threat to her out of the whole division. She has great killer instinct, very aggressive submissions (she may not be the most technically refined, but in her division she hasn't really needed to be) and to her credit is pretty technically refined. The only thing she was having major trouble with from Waterson was the side kick to the knee, which in fairness is not a technique that Joanna uses.

I think with her reach, she could actually be more of a problem from Joanna than anyone she's faced before. I would say that I think Joanna would win - but if Rose beat her, it wouldn't come as a total shock to me.

This is exactly my stance. Couldn't have said it better. I don't think Rose will win, but if she did it would be much less of a surprise than Andrade or even KK beating JJ.

 

[Rico]

I think it was like MM where the striking looking amazing against a plodding power puncher. (Wilson Reis)
One of the easiest types to strike with.

Don't get me wrong jj definitely hit a new level and is one of the absolute best strikers in mma. But it was an easy match up for her. She learned from the Karolina fight that's for sure, fights on the back foot super well now.

Even though she doesn't get hit a lot, sometimes she manages to get herself hit quite clean, almost makes her seem a little chinny

If there's anything I noticed she needs to work on is some of her defensive tendencies. Dunno if there's anyone skilled enough in her weight class or she won't improve in those areas, though, as she's def still getting better.

That being said, she's an absolute joy to watch no matter what her gender and I'm not really a wmma fan at all. Her work behind the jab is beautiful and it's kind of embarrassing how much more advanced just even her jab is (and the work behind it) compared to 95% of the men.

 

[Rico]

Also this is a fantastic thread

 

[AndyMaBobs]

This is exactly my stance. Couldn't have said it better. I don't think Rose will win, but if she did it would be much less of a surprise than Andrade or even KK beating JJ.

Before Andrade, every single time Joanna defended the belt, I felt like she would lose, because both times she was against wrestlers, but then it was a wrestler who could strike etc then against someone who arguably had already beat her.

It actually took me a while to fully appreciate how good she really is. So I never had that thing of thinking she was untouchable as soon as she won the belt. I think it wasn't until she fought Karolina that I felt like she'd be champion for a long time.