Joanna Jędrzejczyk

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by SummerStriker, May 14, 2017.

  1. SummerStriker Black Belt

    SummerStriker
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    Anyone see her fight last night? I've watched her two or three times now. Never seen anyone like her. The striking was fucking amazing.
     
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  2. Soul Rebel 2 Black Belt

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    At one point she stepped back into southpaw with her lead leg to avoid a left hook and then countered Jessica with a head kick before grabbing a clinch and landing a knee. She got taken down (briefly) right after but, holy shit, that was fucking amazing.
     
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  3. Sano Brown Belt

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    She's always been good, but she reached another level last night.
     
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  4. AndyMaBobs Green Belt

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    I'm sure a lot of people from the heavies, who watch TUF and henceforth know more about MMA than us - would scoff at me for saying this (because she's from that shitty WMMA) but -

    I genuinely think she is the best striker in MMA today. Not saying her quality of opposition is as great, but from a technical standpoint she does near everything spot on. Great movement, is able to be elusive while staying in front of the opponent, small minimalist footwork to keep in range, has the most low kicks scored in a single fight, can find them from anywhere, laser accurate punching.

    The great irony is that she wasn't ever a top tier muay thai fighter - but she has managed to make it work so beautifully in MMA.
     
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  5. a guy Black Belt

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    IDK about best striker in MMA. I can't see any way to justify ranking her over Aldo, McGregor, Holloway, Garbrandt, Dillashaw, dos Anjos, or other top men's strikers. The level of competition really can't be ignored. I get that we're all high on her after her amazing performance last night, but she's had less impressive striking performances too that we shouldn't ignore. She's a great striker, easily the best women's striker, but definitely not better than the best men.
     
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  6. Sano Brown Belt

    Sano
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    After her performance last night I'd say she's up there. The thing is, she's also improved her striking since the beginning of her MMA career, not just her grappling. She executed the gameplan perfectly yesterday, so that might play a factor. Let's see if she can keep that up in her next few fights. It'll be tough.
     
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  7. bobthebuilder Special Belt

    bobthebuilder
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    I haven't watched the fight yet, but I'm a fan from previous fights. She's up there, but I wouldn't give her the number 1 spot for striking.
     
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  8. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

    j123
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    K1 Gabi and Tank Abbott are up there as well
     
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  9. AndyMaBobs Green Belt

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    The reason I would put her above someone like someone like Dos Anjos for example, is that Dos Anjos' striking only works in the manner it does because you're afraid he's going to take you down. Admittedly striking doesn't exist in a vacuum, but comparing to her to someone like RDA or like Aldo (who doesn't really do well when he's against someone who's NOT trying to take him down) I'd certainly say she has better form, and is good at fighting both grapplers and strikers.

    I would describe her as better rounded than people like McGregor and Garbrandt (who I personally wouldn't say is an outstanding striker) - but I'd certainly see the argument for Holloway or Dillashaw (even if he does get smacked up a lot). I'm not even just basing it on her performance last night though, just generally how she's been over her title run. Granted there IS a level of competition that as you say, can't be ignored.

    But I'd certainly say on form and technique, she has a lot better control and placement than most guys.
     
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  10. Bekim Blue Belt

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    She is a good striker but in a division that needs to mature. It might be a case that we will never see her tested 100%, it could be her demise as champion will come at the hands of another when she is no longer in her prime after a long run or if she moves up a weight.
     
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  11. Zefram Cochrane Red belt in warp theory and practice.

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    She looked fantastic, but I will have to watch her face better competition. Ronda too looked godly during her run (not really comparing JJ to Ronda on a technical level, since JJ is objectively more well rounded and it's not close), but once the competition caught up with her physical advantage or her skill superiority - and maybe when she also met someone who wasn't frightened by her invincibility aura - all that fell apart. So to speak, you certainly need to be good to look any good, but you'll look maybe too good when you face so-so opposition. Not JJ's fault if her competition is not on par with her, but aside from Claudia that division is meh. All this talk about SW being deeper than BW is a bit of nonsense to me. There's not really anyone else with technical striking nor a good wrestler except from Esparza (who I can define as being "a good wrestler" only because the other women's wrestling is horrible at SW) and possibly Tatiana Suarez , if she'll live up to her hype.
     
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  12. Soul Rebel 2 Black Belt

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    I too would be hesitant to put her above the best guys because, while we can analzye her technique we can't disregard competition. That said, there are certainly areas where she's objectively better than many of the better male strikers in MMA, her footwork, for example, is defiantly better than JDS and Pettis.

    It may be a controversial opinion but I think that Rose is a more technical striker than Nunes. She doesn't have Amandas athleticism but she's improved drastically since she's gotten to the UFC. You can literally watch her see the head kick she landed on Waterson before she threw it, sort of like Cerrone's head kick on Rick Story- very fluid, you can tell neither were trying to force the shot.

    Yeah, we want to see JJ fight better people but its not like Ronda ever looked good on the feet. Its also not like Rondas recent ass kickings take away from the fact that she's legitimately excellent in her wheel house. According to Nate she almost took his arm home.
     
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    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  13. Edison Carasio Excellence of execution belt

    Edison Carasio
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    I will admit that this last fight of hers was the first one I have seen (I don't really watch MMA much anymore) there were some things I noticed in this fight. One thing I thought she did a lot was telegraph the low kick by taking a big step up with her rear foot first. She needs the rear foot under her to throw the lead leg low kick but I didn't notice her doing anything to hide the step such as leading with a jab, just the singular kick on its own. Andrade was doing a terrible job timing it and seemed always a full step behind but I think better comp with a better coach would have punished her and countered Joanna for it.

    But I don't practice my striking as much as I used to these days so maybe she was doing something I just am not good enough to pick up on, but that was my thoughts. "Andrade's coach needs to get her to see that lead step and counter with the hook before the leg kick" just kept going through my head.

    Overall, she looked very good. Very crisp hands and just was heads and shoulders above Andrade all the way around.
     
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  14. Hotora86 火虎 空手道

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    The people demand a cagecraft analysis! ;)
     
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  15. a guy Black Belt

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    I definitely don't agree that dos Anjos' striking only works that way because you're afraid of his wrestling. His wrestling really isn't that good. He's a legitimately good striker though. He outstruck Pettis, Diaz, Cerrone twice, and is the only guy to ever KO Bendo despite being an extremely late bloomer with his striking. He has excellent ring cutting, powerful kicks, a sharp jab, solid defense moving forward and good overall positioning.

    The argument for Aldo not doing well when someone isn't trying to take him down somewhat applies to Joanna too. She didn't look nearly as good against Karolina and Valerie as she did against Esparza and Penne. Look at Aldo's striking performances against Florian, Edgar in the second fight, Hominick, Lamas and others. His footwork is an another level from Joanna's, he has a much snappier jab, his 1-2 is lethal, his left hook is also way better than her's and is actually dangerous, his low kicks destroy people, he has MUCH better head movement, and is probably all around the best defensive fighter in MMA. And again, he's applying these skills against an entirely different level of competition.

    Better rounded than McGregor, sure. But that doesn't mean better overall. McGregor has destroyed just about everyone he's ever fought on the feet, including Aldo. His fundamentals are simply way more refined than hers are. His sense of distance and timing, his set ups, his ability to draw a punch, his head movement, footwork and feints all make him easily one of the best strikers in MMA history.

    Garbrandt is definitely an outstanding striker. He's undefeated with 9 (t)kos in 11 fights, which includes Mizugaki and he not only gave Thomas Almeida his first loss, he knocked him out too. Then he went out there and simply embarrassed Cruz. You don't style on the best bantamweight of all time and thoroughly dismantle him on the feet without being an outstanding striker. I mean look at this:



    Joanna is definitely better than most guys from a purely technical standpoint, but no way is she THE best striker. The best men are more technical against a different world of competition.

    Edit: fixed the gif
     
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    Last edited: May 15, 2017
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  16. aerius Brown Belt

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    Bendo I'll give you, but the other 3 have glaring well known weaknesses which match up well for RDA. Once you jam or otherwise get inside Pettis' kicks, he has nothing else left to really hurt you with and he'll back himself nicely into the cage where he can be trapped and beaten up. Which matches up well with RDA's preferred pressure fighting game. Diaz of course can be chopped out with low kicks all day and RDA simply applied "how to beat a Diaz 101". Cowboy is weak in the body and tends to lose most boxing exchanges once you get past his kicks. This was RDA's best performance in that he went after the body with kicks from open stance, then closed into punching range where he worked the body & head some more.

    The issue I have with RDA is his inability to adapt and adjust his strike selection, this was what cost him in the Tony Ferguson fight. RDA was having good success with the low kicks and body kicks but he failed to build sequences & combos off those strikes, and worse yet, he abandoned the kicks and hunted almost exclusively for the left hand KO which allowed Tony to see everything coming and run away with the fight. He boxed predictably with a better boxer and lost.

    You don't see the top strikers abandoning something that's working well then fighting to their opponent's strengths. Once they find something that works, they'll start exploiting it and building setups & sequences off of it. Let's take David Teymur in his fight against Vannata. Once he saw his left kick was landing he started looking for as many ways to set it up and land it as he could. He looked for and created opportunities to land the kick, then used the kick to setup further punches and knees. One thing built off another and before too long Vannata was getting overwhelmed with left kicks and knees to the body.

    The ability to adjust mid-fight to exploit an opening and build off of it is something that Joanna has shown. In her fight against Letourneau, she saw that her low kicks were working and started going heavily to them from the 2nd round on. Besides throwing more low kicks, she adjusted her strike selection to set them up better and create more opportunities to land them. And once Valerie had to worry about and defend the low kicks, everything else started landing at a much higher rate as the defensive gaps opened up.
     
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  17. a guy Black Belt

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    Nobody had ever done what RDA did to Pettis beforehand. Guys had tried, like Melendez, but he got dropped and choked out. People thought Pettis was gonna be a dominant champ for a long time, then RDA went in there and absolutely wrecked him. You also can't fault him for going to a known gameplan against Diaz, and he executed that gameplan extremely well. He showed serious skill in the way he handled Diaz. Same with Cerrone. Cerrone is a great striker. Sure he has weaknesses, but he's a tough fight for anyone from 155-170. RDA mauled him in their second fight and you really can't downplay how impressive that is.

    That is a legitimate criticism though. I'll give you that, and Joanna definitely has shown adaptability. However, RDA's fight against Ferguson is weird for me. RDA outclassed him in the first round, took a nasty eye poke in the second then looked weird for the rest of the fight. He still looked great in spots, and would likely have knocked Tony out with some of the shots he landed if Tony didn't have one of the best chins in the sport. RDA won 2 rounds and landed some huge shots even in the rounds he lost, despite the eye poke and the significant reach disadvantage. He didn't make the best decisions in that fight and I want to see a rematch at some point because it was way closer than most people remember, though Tony did win clearly. Also, Tony is a much tougher matchup for RDA on the feet than anyone Joanna has ever fought. It's a completely different level of competition than someone like Letourneau.
     
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  18. a guy Black Belt

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  19. AndyMaBobs Green Belt

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    That's fair enough if you don't agree. I'm not denying say someone like McGregor is one of the best or anything like that - simply why I'm not as sold on some of the members of the list.

    My rebuttal (aside from Aerius one who I think covers some good points) is that while RDA did outstrike Pettis, and he did it with forward pressure, I don't think that forward pressure comes without him being a deadly grappler. I think if you weren't nervous of the takedown (which though he's not a great wrestler, can come at any time) he wouldn't be AS scary, which is why I don't think Eddie was AS bothered by him (not saying Eddie wasn't more timid of course).

    My argument for Garbrandt not being an outstanding striker is that although he has had a lot of knockouts, not denying he has power - I feel that his fights have been so short that we haven't really had the chance to see where the weaknesses of his striking lie. I am of course happy to be proved wrong on it - but I don't think that him outstriking Dominick Cruz, a fighter who has never had good ring cutting, simply by moving backwards makes him an outstanding striker in and of itself, because I also wouldn't describe Cruz as an amazing striker (amazing MMA fighter over all, but as a striker I've often felt him lacking in certain areas) - and for my money the gif itself doesn't actually impress me that much. It's cool for sure how he slips away and does his little jig, and it was a good performance - not disputing that, but I feel like that it's assuming that Dominick Cruz was this fantastic striker, when I personally feel what he really excelled at was the footwork to set up his takedowns and to score points while moving on the backfoot.

    I'd rather not make the discussion too much about the successes and shortcomings of other fighters though purely because I feel it could get a little off track. I do DEFINITELY see where you're coming from.


    What I am curious though is would you say that you feel the top level MMA fighters are better strikers than top level female muay thai fighters - as I would say that from a technical stand point Karolina would have been a more dangerous opponent for Joanna than a woman with a Tony Ferguson esque style - in the same way that I don't think a guy like Tony Ferguson is really going to bother a mid level muay thai fighter or kickboxer - like Joe Schilling for example. Not that Ferguson isn't good at what he does, but I could see a woman with his style hypothetically going against a high level fighter like Joanna and her going "yeah whatever" and shutting them down, because of her experiences against top level female muay thai fighters like Duannapa and Amanda Kelly (who admittedly both beat her).

    Obviously I think at the end of the day its one of those apples and oranges situations where we can never actually know the true answer.
     
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  20. a guy Black Belt

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    Fair, we should keep the thread about Joanna.

    I'm not entirely familiar with top level female MT fighters that aren't Joanna and Valentina. That said, I don't rate Karolina all that highly. She did almost nothing to prevent Joanna from controlling distance. I think a Ferguson style fighter would give Joanna HUGE problems. She relies a lot on her reach and on being able to unload with volume that the opponent respects. Ferguson has a ton of reach and doesn't give a fuck what you hit him with, he's not stopping. Also, I'd be careful using Joe Schilling as an example considering he got knocked out in both MMA and kickboxing by an MMA fighter. I'd also pick a female Mendes or RDA to beat Joanna because I think she'd struggle with them stylistically when they forced her to work in the pocket (I'm picturing her getting rocked by Karolina and dropped by Gadelha). Definitely a female McGregor or Aldo would beat her, as well as a female Holloway for sure. Maybe I'm a sexist pig but I really don't rate her level of competition highly at all. Honestly she's one of maybe like 3 female MMA fighters who I believe are genuinely talented and skilled.

    All this sounds like I'm coming off really negative on Joanna, but I'm actually a huge fan of her. I posted a link before to something I wrote about her forever ago, and I think she's remarkably skilled. Definitely one of the most technical fighters in the sport and she does some really slick stuff. Joanna is fucking awesome, I just don't agree that she's better than all of the best men even if she's better than most.
     
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