- Joined
- Sep 5, 2012
- Messages
- 11,689
- Reaction score
- 5,772
Anyone see her fight last night? I've watched her two or three times now. Never seen anyone like her. The striking was fucking amazing.
I'm sure a lot of people from the heavies, who watch TUF and henceforth know more about MMA than us - would scoff at me for saying this (because she's from that shitty WMMA) but -
I genuinely think she is the best striker in MMA today. Not saying her quality of opposition is as great, but from a technical standpoint she does near everything spot on. Great movement, is able to be elusive while staying in front of the opponent, small minimalist footwork to keep in range, has the most low kicks scored in a single fight, can find them from anywhere, laser accurate punching.
The great irony is that she wasn't ever a top tier muay thai fighter - but she has managed to make it work so beautifully in MMA.
After her performance last night I'd say she's up there. The thing is, she's also improved her striking since the beginning of her MMA career, not just her grappling. She executed the gameplan perfectly yesterday, so that might play a factor. Let's see if she can keep that up in her next few fights. It'll be tough.I'm sure a lot of people from the heavies, who watch TUF and henceforth know more about MMA than us - would scoff at me for saying this (because she's from that shitty WMMA) but -
I genuinely think she is the best striker in MMA today. Not saying her quality of opposition is as great, but from a technical standpoint she does near everything spot on. Great movement, is able to be elusive while staying in front of the opponent, small minimalist footwork to keep in range, has the most low kicks scored in a single fight, can find them from anywhere, laser accurate punching.
The great irony is that she wasn't ever a top tier muay thai fighter - but she has managed to make it work so beautifully in MMA.
K1 Gabi and Tank Abbott are up there as wellIDK about best striker in MMA. I can't see any way to justify ranking her over Aldo, McGregor, Holloway, Garbrandt, Dillashaw, dos Anjos, or other top men's strikers. The level of competition really can't be ignored. I get that we're all high on her after her amazing performance last night, but she's had less impressive striking performances too that we shouldn't ignore. She's a great striker, easily the best women's striker, but definitely not better than the best men.
IDK about best striker in MMA. I can't see any way to justify ranking her over Aldo, McGregor, Holloway, Garbrandt, Dillashaw, dos Anjos, or other top men's strikers. The level of competition really can't be ignored. I get that we're all high on her after her amazing performance last night, but she's had less impressive striking performances too that we shouldn't ignore. She's a great striker, easily the best women's striker, but definitely not better than the best men.
All this talk about SW being deeper than BW is a bit of nonsense to me. There's not really anyone else with technical striking nor a good wrestler except from Esparza (who I can define as being "a good wrestler" only because the other women's wrestling is horrible at SW)
The people demand a cagecraft analysis!IDK about best striker in MMA. I can't see any way to justify ranking her over Aldo, McGregor, Holloway, Garbrandt, Dillashaw, dos Anjos, or other top men's strikers. The level of competition really can't be ignored. I get that we're all high on her after her amazing performance last night, but she's had less impressive striking performances too that we shouldn't ignore. She's a great striker, easily the best women's striker, but definitely not better than the best men.
The reason I would put her above someone like someone like Dos Anjos for example, is that Dos Anjos' striking only works in the manner it does because you're afraid he's going to take you down. Admittedly striking doesn't exist in a vacuum, but comparing to her to someone like RDA or like Aldo (who doesn't really do well when he's against someone who's NOT trying to take him down) I'd certainly say she has better form, and is good at fighting both grapplers and strikers.
I would describe her as better rounded than people like McGregor and Garbrandt (who I personally wouldn't say is an outstanding striker) - but I'd certainly see the argument for Holloway or Dillashaw (even if he does get smacked up a lot). I'm not even just basing it on her performance last night though, just generally how she's been over her title run. Granted there IS a level of competition that as you say, can't be ignored.
But I'd certainly say on form and technique, she has a lot better control and placement than most guys.
I definitely don't agree that dos Anjos' striking only works that way because you're afraid of his wrestling. His wrestling really isn't that good. He's a legitimately good striker though. He outstruck Pettis, Diaz, Cerrone twice, and is the only guy to ever KO Bendo despite being an extremely late bloomer with his striking. He has excellent ring cutting, powerful kicks, a sharp jab, solid defense moving forward and good overall positioning.
Bendo I'll give you, but the other 3 have glaring well known weaknesses which match up well for RDA. Once you jam or otherwise get inside Pettis' kicks, he has nothing else left to really hurt you with and he'll back himself nicely into the cage where he can be trapped and beaten up. Which matches up well with RDA's preferred pressure fighting game. Diaz of course can be chopped out with low kicks all day and RDA simply applied "how to beat a Diaz 101". Cowboy is weak in the body and tends to lose most boxing exchanges once you get past his kicks. This was RDA's best performance in that he went after the body with kicks from open stance, then closed into punching range where he worked the body & head some more.
The issue I have with RDA is his inability to adapt and adjust his strike selection, this was what cost him in the Tony Ferguson fight. RDA was having good success with the low kicks and body kicks but he failed to build sequences & combos off those strikes, and worse yet, he abandoned the kicks and hunted almost exclusively for the left hand KO which allowed Tony to see everything coming and run away with the fight. He boxed predictably with a better boxer and lost.
You don't see the top strikers abandoning something that's working well then fighting to their opponent's strengths. Once they find something that works, they'll start exploiting it and building setups & sequences off of it. Let's take David Teymur in his fight against Vannata. Once he saw his left kick was landing he started looking for as many ways to set it up and land it as he could. He looked for and created opportunities to land the kick, then used the kick to setup further punches and knees. One thing built off another and before too long Vannata was getting overwhelmed with left kicks and knees to the body.
The ability to adjust mid-fight to exploit an opening and build off of it is something that Joanna has shown. In her fight against Letourneau, she saw that her low kicks were working and started going heavily to them from the 2nd round on. Besides throwing more low kicks, she adjusted her strike selection to set them up better and create more opportunities to land them. And once Valerie had to worry about and defend the low kicks, everything else started landing at a much higher rate as the defensive gaps opened up.
The people demand a cagecraft analysis!
I definitely don't agree that dos Anjos' striking only works that way because you're afraid of his wrestling. His wrestling really isn't that good. He's a legitimately good striker though. He outstruck Pettis, Diaz, Cerrone twice, and is the only guy to ever KO Bendo despite being an extremely late bloomer with his striking. He has excellent ring cutting, powerful kicks, a sharp jab, solid defense moving forward and good overall positioning.
The argument for Aldo not doing well when someone isn't trying to take him down somewhat applies to Joanna too. She didn't look nearly as good against Karolina and Valerie as she did against Esparza and Penne. Look at Aldo's striking performances against Florian, Edgar in the second fight, Hominick, Lamas and others. His footwork is an another level from Joanna's, he has a much snappier jab, his 1-2 is lethal, his left hook is also way better than her's and is actually dangerous, his low kicks destroy people, he has MUCH better head movement, and is probably all around the best defensive fighter in MMA. And again, he's applying these skills against an entirely different level of competition.
Better rounded than McGregor, sure. But that doesn't mean better overall. McGregor has destroyed just about everyone he's ever fought on the feet, including Aldo. His fundamentals are simply way more refined than hers are. His sense of distance and timing, his set ups, his ability to draw a punch, his head movement, footwork and feints all make him easily one of the best strikers in MMA history.
Garbrandt is definitely an outstanding striker. He's undefeated with 9 (t)kos in 11 fights, which includes Mizugaki and he not only gave Thomas Almeida his first loss, he knocked him out too. Then he went out there and simply embarrassed Cruz. You don't style on the best bantamweight of all time and thoroughly dismantle him on the feet without being an outstanding striker. I mean look at this:
Joanna is definitely better than most guys from a purely technical standpoint, but no way is she THE best striker. The best men are more technical against a different world of competition.
Edit: fixed the gif
That's fair enough if you don't agree. I'm not denying say someone like McGregor is one of the best or anything like that - simply why I'm not as sold on some of the members of the list.
My rebuttal (aside from Aerius one who I think covers some good points) is that while RDA did outstrike Pettis, and he did it with forward pressure, I don't think that forward pressure comes without him being a deadly grappler. I think if you weren't nervous of the takedown (which though he's not a great wrestler, can come at any time) he wouldn't be AS scary, which is why I don't think Eddie was AS bothered by him (not saying Eddie wasn't more timid of course).
My argument for Garbrandt not being an outstanding striker is that although he has had a lot of knockouts, not denying he has power - I feel that his fights have been so short that we haven't really had the chance to see where the weaknesses of his striking lie. I am of course happy to be proved wrong on it - but I don't think that him outstriking Dominick Cruz, a fighter who has never had good ring cutting, simply by moving backwards makes him an outstanding striker in and of itself, because I also wouldn't describe Cruz as an amazing striker (amazing MMA fighter over all, but as a striker I've often felt him lacking in certain areas) - and for my money the gif itself doesn't actually impress me that much. It's cool for sure how he slips away and does his little jig, and it was a good performance - not disputing that, but I feel like that it's assuming that Dominick Cruz was this fantastic striker, when I personally feel what he really excelled at was the footwork to set up his takedowns and to score points while moving on the backfoot.
I'd rather not make the discussion too much about the successes and shortcomings of other fighters though purely because I feel it could get a little off track. I do DEFINITELY see where you're coming from.
What I am curious though is would you say that you feel the top level MMA fighters are better strikers than top level female muay thai fighters - as I would say that from a technical stand point Karolina would have been a more dangerous opponent for Joanna than a woman with a Tony Ferguson esque style - in the same way that I don't think a guy like Tony Ferguson is really going to bother a mid level muay thai fighter or kickboxer - like Joe Schilling for example. Not that Ferguson isn't good at what he does, but I could see a woman with his style hypothetically going against a high level fighter like Joanna and her going "yeah whatever" and shutting them down, because of her experiences against top level female muay thai fighters like Duannapa and Amanda Kelly (who admittedly both beat her).
Obviously I think at the end of the day its one of those apples and oranges situations where we can never actually know the true answer.