Japan needs migrants badly

They will adapt. The time for needing tons of unskilled workers will be coming to an end. And here I thought many people wanted to see less population growth? Or is money(economy) now more important?

Leave them be. If they wish for their population and economy to take a hit due to the consequences of their actions, that's their business. If the people want it too, then even better. Do they want to remain a cohesive society at thr cost of some dolla bills? That would be a great thing to see, and I hope so.

They can see how Europe is fairing. Pretty sure they want no part of that.
 
nac386 said:
I don't doubt that. But unfortunately for you, history provides the context for where we are today.
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Do you not understand what I meant by that ? I thought it was obvious.

Are Germans in their 20's responsible because of the III Reich ?

Don't think so.
 
KBE6EKCTAH_CCP said:
Do you not understand what I meant by that ? I thought it was obvious.

Are Germans in their 20's responsible because of the III Reich ?

Don't think so.
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That really does not have anything to do with what we're talking about, since nobody claimed that current humans are responsible for the actions of past humans.

What we are discussing is ideology, and how those ideologies have manifested themselves in that country's recent history. Like I said, within my own living grandfather's lifetime, the Japanese have used that very ethnocentricity that they display now to justify rape, torture, and genocide. The mass murder of babies, the mass rape of women, all sponsored by their military. Those ideologies were defeated, and the Japanese were helped to rebuild a democracy with an economy, military social norms by...you guessed it....the United States.

Japan is what it is, in large part, because of the United States and our values. Before the United States intervened, the Japanese' beliefs in ethnic superiority led to evil atrocity. Not a thousand years ago, I'm talking within the lifetime of people who are still alive.

So no, I will not pretend that we are not better than Japan. I do not buy into "master race" or "ethnic superiority" bullshit whatsoever, no matter who it is coming from and what their current state is, because we already know how that ideology ends. In atrocity.

The United States, our own country, has had it right all along.
 
I wonder which would have a longer lasting negative effect on Japanese culture - the shrinking population problem they're facing now, or bolstering their population with a faster growing but very different culture as seen in western Europe? I think the former would result in a homogeneous population after a period of tough adjustment, while the later would result in diluting a very old culture/people. I'm assuming the Japanese people are considering their options carefully.
 
ObsoleteSoul said:
They will adapt. The time for needing tons of unskilled workers will be coming to an end. And here I thought many people wanted to see less population growth? Or is money(economy) now more important?

Leave them be. If they wish for their population and economy to take a hit due to the consequences of their actions, that's their business. If the people want it too, then even better. Do they want to remain a cohesive society at thr cost of some dolla bills? That would be a great thing to see, and I hope so.

They can see how Europe is fairing. Pretty sure they want no part of that.
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Japan is actually pushing hard for more immigrants. The lack of immigration is on the supply side (meaning they're encouraging more people to move there but people don't want to).

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-30/japan-wants-immigrants-the-feeling-isn-t-mutual
 
Son of Jamin said:
Yup, but by the looks of it, they are looking for skilled workers and not economic migrants. Which is wise compared to Europe.
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They've been more successful recruiting lower-skilled workers than they have been with high-skill workers so that's part of it. But, yes, any country obviously would prefer more high-skilled immigrants to low-skill workers, almost by definition.
 
TapoutforSprawl said:
I would love to live in Japan and spread my seed around. If only I wasn't too retarded to learn a new language.
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I both a my cousin and a friend of mine have both moved to China and Japan (respectively) over 10 years ago. Neither has ever learned to speak the language and are both married to women they met there (citizens) and one has a kid.

So you really don't need to learn the language from what they've told me. Which is ironic considering how many Americans deride immigrants here for not doing so.
 
Jack V Savage said:
Japan is actually pushing hard for more immigrants. The lack of immigration is on the supply side (meaning they're encouraging more people to move there but people don't want to).

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-30/japan-wants-immigrants-the-feeling-isn-t-mutual
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Wow, that is interesting. Never would I have guessed Japan would be the last choice for skilled workers. Maybe the cost of living there is too much and they can make more in say China or Thailand, after livings costs are taken out?

Either way, it is their choice imo. Let the Japanese run Japan the way they want. Inviting immigrants to their country or not.
 
ObsoleteSoul said:
Wow, that is interesting. Never would I have guessed Japan would be the last choice for skilled workers. Maybe the cost of living there is too much and they can make more in say China or Thailand, after livings costs are taken out?

Either way, it is their choice imo. Let the Japanese run Japan the way they want. Inviting immigrants to their country or not.
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The piece gets into the reasons. Language is one, but corporate culture is the other (that's a cause of a lot of economic problems for the country). In this case, long hours with low per-hour productivity (boring jobs, in other words) and low starting salaries (made up for with steady raises, but that's not appealing to people who aren't planning to stay at the same job forever).
 
Denter said:
Japan I think is not a terribly pleasant place for foreigners, even well heeled ones.
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That's not my experience or the experience of people I know. I think it's a very pleasant place for foreigners, but maybe not foreign workers (sucks for Japanese workers, too, but they don't have as many options).
 
TheGreatA said:
I don't think they changed the core philosophy of what it means to be Japanese.

It seems to us a radical change, because what happened was comparable to the unification and industrialization of Germany, except that the process was much more rapid. By 1894, Japan already showed its power against the Chinese, even though in the 1860's they were relatively backwards, comparable to a medieval feudal European kingdom in their structure.

But I think it would be fair to say that the essential principles for Germanic peoples remained the same from what they had been centuries ago, and the same could be said for the Japanese. Nationalism was only truly effective in uniting folk that shared a common cultural, philosophical, linguistic tradition. Attempts to unify people who did not share these qualities, usually ended in failure.

For Japan to suddenly turn into modern-day Germany would be a bigger leap of faith. They simply don't share the same sentiments of what WW2 meant for them. Japan still retains the same philosophy towards social structure, while the Germans believed that they needed to rebuild everything from scratch (Stunde Null), including what it means to be German, which means that they've taken active measures to abandon the remnants of the thousands of years of historical, philosophical and cultural development that had brought them to this point.

For Japan to adopt immigration as a policy, would require them to critique their social structure and cut themselves off from their history. I cannot see that happening.
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I think you're downplaying the extent that their culture changed when they entered the nation-state era but let's just agree to disagree here.
 
they need clones! fuck other people dna! yo!
 
Kafir-kun said:
I think you're downplaying the extent that their culture changed when they entered the nation-state era but let's just agree to disagree here.
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Japan modernizing in the manner that they did during the Meiji restoration, was compatible with the values that they already subscribed to (the potential re-distribution of power rather than a re-shaping of ideals, was the real problem with that process, particularly for the samurai). To rely on immigration in order to "survive" though, would require them to abandon their legacy as an island culture. They would have to go against a national characteristic that has been cultivated for a thousand years, for better or worse.

It's not that I'm down-playing the cultural change that happened, it is just that I believe, based on the facts that are available (of Japanese people's own philosophy on the subject), that accepting immigration as a policy would be a bigger leap of faith for the Japanese than the Meiji restoration or the post-Imperial reconstruction was (the Japanese were never truly forced to re-evaluate their values in the same manner as the Germans were).

It would be their Stunde Null moment essentially, an acknowledgement of national failure on a level that has never happened before for the Japanese, not even after the atomic bombings.

It would take a very significant catastrophe for that to happen, I would think.

If Japan had actually succeeded in their imperialist conquest of other territories and islands, I'm of the opinion that, today, they would actually be more capable of embracing "globalism" and immigration, as the British eventually were, since they would have eventually had to mold their culture to be more "inclusive" of others as all other imperialist powers did. But since they've remained an island culture, the chances of that happening are very low, unless something significant takes place.
 
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France has a very good fertility rate, almost replacement. 2.0 vs the EU's average of 1.6. They achieve this because they have robust systems that financially support families with children, which amount to an investment of 5% of their GDP. They also have very early kindergarten so that mothers can quickly go back to work. Culturally, being a mother is seen as valuable, and it has a minimal impact on a woman's professional life.

Any nation can replication these conditions, immigration isn't necessary.

But Japan's cultural problems are deeply entrenched, sexism, rigid gender roles, poor relationship between the sexes, lack of daycares and infrastructure, lack of financial incentivization, insane work hours, high cost of life, etc. They just have a complete inability to evolve in their attitudes, it's sad.
 
Renard said:
France has a very good fertility rate, almost replacement. 2.0 vs the EU's average of 1.6. They achieve this because they have robust systems that financially support families with children, which amount to an investment of 5% of their GDP. They also have very early kindergarten so that mothers can quickly go back to work. Culturally, being a mother is seen as valuable, and it has a minimal impact on a woman's professional life.

Any nation can replication these conditions, immigration isn't necessary.

But Japan's cultural problems are deeply entrenched, sexism, rigid gender roles, poor relationship between the sexes, lack of daycares and infrastructure, lack of financial incentivization, insane work hours, high cost of life, etc. They just have a complete inability to evolve in their attitudes, it's sad.
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France's policies in this regard are very similar to Russia's, another country that has managed to over-turn a catastrophic trend (post-Soviet collapse).

According to data, immigration may be a factor, but not the only factor that contributes to their success in these regards. Japan does not need immigration to survive. To be blunt, they need to take their heads off their asses in order to survive.

There are many cases where women are literally worked to death in Japan. I don't see why immigrant women won't simply be turned into the new Japanese women, if they're "assimilated" into that culture. And if they're not, then they will be ostracized, and seen as threatening by the natives.
 
Kafir-kun said:
Or idk, maybe they could cull the elderly. Maybe you'd prefer that to them letting in migrants
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I am sure the Japanese would prefer not to see their culture diluted and harmed by trying to integrate people that are not them. Cultural impact is never even seriously considered by the pro mass immigration crowd on this forum.. Of it is they don't give a fuck.
 
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