Jack of all or master of 1?

Gorbag said:
Learn a few techniques but learn to execute them as a true master instead of getting mediocre on a thousand different things.
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That Bruce Lee quote about "I fear not the man who's practiced a thousand kicks once, but who's practiced one kick a thousand times"

probably applies here.

If you never put quality time on a technique, you'll never be very good at it.

Not to say training a diverse arsenal of techniques is bad, but pick a few and make them your main.
 
Its the same in grappling or whatever; if you master your tokui waza then other pieces of the larger picture will come in place as well. So you don't go from generalist to specialist but the other way around.
 
It's up to the opponent to stop it.

In training even when my partners get wise to my favorites and it forces me to adapt to other technique, they then leave themselves open to the technique I wanted in the first place defending the secondary attacks.

It's not about going to a technique, it's about seeing when the technique comes to you.
 
Whatever your opinion is post it. No stupid ideas
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deweydeucalion said:
In MMA it seems like single submission specialists are more successful than those that take what is given.
Palhares (Heel hook,knee bar)
Ronda (Armbar)
Faber (guillotine)
Maia (Lion killer)

In "MMA" is it better to have a diverse submission game or to specialize in a particular submission?
Thoughts?
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It's not so much specializing in a specific submission as it is having a game that provides you with chances to go for a specific sub over and over. People don't give you shit at the higher levels of MMA (or at least, it's rare), so you have to create your chances and learning a whole game to create chances for more than one type of sub is hard. Palhares is really good at those leg entanglement entries, so he built a grappling game around that. The heel hook just happens to be the finish. Ronda had already built a game around attacking the arm bar from Judo, so she just stuck with that. All the TAM guys are pretty good wrestlers so they end up in front headlock positions a lot, so they optimized their finishing chances from there by getting really good at guillotines. Maia is all about takedown with continuous control and minimizing damage and counterplay, so taking the back is perfect for his style and he built a game around getting there. Don't concentrate on how someone finishes, concentrate on all the things they do to get to that point where they can finish. I wouldn't say the finish is incidental but it's not the hardest part.

If you look at people who catch a lot of subs against lower level people but get stymied against high level guys (Joe Lauzon and Charles Oliveira come to mind), a common thread is that they throw a lot of subs but don't really have a systematic setup game. That works against lower level guys who make more mistakes and give you more chances, not so much against the top of the heap.
 
Uchi Mata said:
It's not so much specializing in a specific submission as it is having a game that provides you with chances to go for a specific sub over and over. People don't give you shit at the higher levels of MMA (or at least, it's rare), so you have to create your chances and learning a whole game to create chances for more than one type of sub is hard. Palhares is really good at those leg entanglement entries, so he built a grappling game around that. The heel hook just happens to be the finish. Ronda had already built a game around attacking the arm bar from Judo, so she just stuck with that. All the TAM guys are pretty good wrestlers so they end up in front headlock positions a lot, so they optimized their finishing chances from there by getting really good at guillotines. Maia is all about takedown with continuous control and minimizing damage and counterplay, so taking the back is perfect for his style and he built a game around getting there. Don't concentrate on how someone finishes, concentrate on all the things they do to get to that point where they can finish. I wouldn't say the finish is incidental but it's not the hardest part.

If you look at people who catch a lot of subs against lower level people but get stymied against high level guys (Joe Lauzon and Charles Oliveira come to mind), a common thread is that they throw a lot of subs but don't really have a systematic setup game. That works against lower level guys who make more mistakes and give you more chances, not so much against the top of the heap.
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I was thinking the opposite, thinking of the finish then coming up with the set ups.
Eddy Bravo (time stamped) talks about how if you are really good at leg locks other parts of your bjj game can be bad because you don't have to pass/sweep.

Question 1: Would you find how to get dominant positions then from the position find submissions?
Question 2: What is counter play?
thanks
 
deweydeucalion said:

I was thinking the opposite, thinking of the finish then coming up with the set ups.
Eddy Bravo (time stamped) talks about how if you are really good at leg locks other parts of your bjj game can be bad because you don't have to pass/sweep.

Question 1: Would you find how to get dominant positions then from the position find submissions?
Question 2: What is counter play?
thanks
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1. Coaching
2. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=counterplay
 
Not to derail the sniping, but here are my thoughts on the original question.

It's not that these guys focus on one submission and that they ignore the others, or won't take them when they come. It's that they are system-based grapplers, and for them all roads lead to the same place, where that submission becomes available. Faber hits the guillotine because he excels at securing a front headlock. Demian Maia gets the RNC because his whole grappling game revolves around taking your back. Ronda's armbar can be hit from anywhere, so it's a little different. And Palhares initiates takedowns and scrambles that expose your legs, or looks to enter leg entaglements from all positions.

The idea is that these fighters have an actual gameplan, where from every grappling position they use it to get to their preferred position and attack from there. It's not that you have to be a specialist in a particular submission - that's just the end result. It's that there has to be a system and gameplan to what you're doing, and with these fighters the gameplan leads to the same direction from wherever you find yourself.
 
Uchi Mata said:
It's not so much specializing in a specific submission as it is having a game that provides you with chances to go for a specific sub over and over. People don't give you shit at the higher levels of MMA (or at least, it's rare), so you have to create your chances and learning a whole game to create chances for more than one type of sub is hard. Palhares is really good at those leg entanglement entries, so he built a grappling game around that. The heel hook just happens to be the finish. Ronda had already built a game around attacking the arm bar from Judo, so she just stuck with that. All the TAM guys are pretty good wrestlers so they end up in front headlock positions a lot, so they optimized their finishing chances from there by getting really good at guillotines. Maia is all about takedown with continuous control and minimizing damage and counterplay, so taking the back is perfect for his style and he built a game around getting there. Don't concentrate on how someone finishes, concentrate on all the things they do to get to that point where they can finish. I wouldn't say the finish is incidental but it's not the hardest part.

If you look at people who catch a lot of subs against lower level people but get stymied against high level guys (Joe Lauzon and Charles Oliveira come to mind), a common thread is that they throw a lot of subs but don't really have a systematic setup game. That works against lower level guys who make more mistakes and give you more chances, not so much against the top of the heap.
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Well damn, you said what I said but you said it first.
 
Take Ronda the armbar specialist; when she started out she most likely learned to be really good on a few basic setups. Then people also got better in defending it so she developed new solutions and answers to their defences -like an arms race so to speak. But the focus for her is always the end result - to get into exactly that armbar and get the tap out. Along the road new setups that compliments the original gameplan also get more developed, new ways to put pressure and chase the arm until she'll finally gets it. After some years of setting up and getting literary thousands of submissions in randori and competition she will have a whole arsenal of attacks and entrances to finish with that armbar.
 
I was thinking the opposite, thinking of the finish then coming up with the set ups.
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For a lot of subs the finish is easier then the setup.
 
deweydeucalion said:
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Sometimes I can be. But I didn't think your question was very well formed (maybe you're not a native English speaker, in which case I am just an asshole). Building a game is typically an organic process that occurs over a long period of time and is different for everyone. Some people have great coaching and they get taught a specific game plan from day 1. That's the minority. Most of us learn a ton of positions and submissions, and over time just figure out what works for us and what doesn't. At that point, the smart people focus in on continuing to build their games around what they naturally do well, what works for them. But many people continue to learn in scattershot fashion and never develop a coherent game: their training isn't purposeful. Maia's training clearly is. He came in MMA with a refined BJJ game, and he added the elements of other arts (mostly wrestling) to it that he needed to be implement it against anyone (of course, this didn't happen overnight. Let's not talk about K1 Maia). I don't see a lot of BJJ guys do this, and so they're never able to use their BJJ effectively in the octagon because they don't add the other elements they need to get to the positions they want on a consistent basis.
 
in what universe is maia a master of one?

he is a master takedown artist, master guard passer, and master submission artist.
 
Uchi Mata said:
Sometimes I can be. But I didn't think your question was very well formed (maybe you're not a native English speaker, in which case I am just an asshole). Building a game is typically an organic process that occurs over a long period of time and is different for everyone. Some people have great coaching and they get taught a specific game plan from day 1. That's the minority. Most of us learn a ton of positions and submissions, and over time just figure out what works for us and what doesn't. At that point, the smart people focus in on continuing to build their games around what they naturally do well, what works for them. But many people continue to learn in scattershot fashion and never develop a coherent game: their training isn't purposeful. Maia's training clearly is. He came in MMA with a refined BJJ game, and he added the elements of other arts (mostly wrestling) to it that he needed to be implement it against anyone (of course, this didn't happen overnight. Let's not talk about K1 Maia). I don't see a lot of BJJ guys do this, and so they're never able to use their BJJ effectively in the octagon because they don't add the other elements they need to get to the positions they want on a consistent basis.
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Uchi Mata said:
You mad bro? I already admitted I can be an asshole. Oh well.

Though you should have just googled 'counterplay'. That one was simple.
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What makes you anything more than just another pretentious, faceless internet dweeb?
You never won a major title in anything including grammar so your opinion is worth less than the walmart keyboard you use to type them.
Your mission statements are not even on topic.
 
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