I've been using Kettlebell For Grapplers program for 6 weeks, my review

[Uchi Mata]

Uchi, Urban dictionary says tame the beast is to have a wank. Are you saying grip strength is more important than overall power?

You might googled 'taming the beast kettlebells'.

Kettlebells: taming the beast

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I think if you look at this guy's physique vs. your average powerlifter, he's in much more the kind of shape most grapplers would want.

 

[thugpoet]

The mistake grapplers make is that we assume the only way to get stronger is to do a ton of volume strength training.

All that bjj cardio, plus trying to make out all the time on a program like ss is gonna lead to injury's.

Volume control is key.

People who say they feel stronger with kettle bells is because they have more energy because they arnt taxing their cns.

 

[anaconda]

You might googled 'taming the beast kettlebells'.

Kettlebells: taming the beast

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I think if you look at this guy's physique vs. your average powerlifter, he's in much more the kind of shape most grapplers would want.

That's Mike Davis! He works out in our gym and gives PT to people there (he doesn't do BJJ but works with the personal trainer we have).

He is absolutely brilliant and has a doctorate. Dude is awesome.If anyone needs PT in the Northern VA area I highly recommend you talk to him.

 

[Uchi Mata]

That's Mike Davis! He works out in our gym and gives PT to people there (he doesn't do BJJ but works with the personal trainer we have).

He is absolutely brilliant and has a doctorate. Dude is awesome.If anyone needs PT in the Northern VA area I highly recommend you talk to him.

He's one of only 12 people to TTB officially, and probably the smallest. That's a 108 lb kettlebell, I'm amazed anyone at his BW can do all 3 of those lifts.

If you see him, ask him if he got that strong just doing KBs or if he did a bunch of powerlifting or something else beforehand. How the hell did he prepare for that?

 

[anaconda]

He's one of only 12 people to TTB officially, and probably the smallest. That's a 108 lb kettlebell, I'm amazed anyone at his BW can do all 3 of those lifts.

If you see him, ask him if he got that strong just doing KBs or if he did a bunch of powerlifting or something else beforehand. How the hell did he prepare for that?

I'll definitely do that next time I see him. It is quite an accomplishment.

 

[Kbits]

Still waiting to hear about the new program.

I'd say that many get plenty of mat fitness from sparring/training. I believe that ancillary work, if needed, should be low volume, incrimental, with plenty of rest and little fatigue; that doesn't speak well to traditional kettlebell programming but rather something like strength training.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Still waiting to hear about the new program.

I'd say that many get plenty of mat fitness from sparring/training. I believe that ancillary work, if needed, should be low volume, incrimental, with plenty of rest and little fatigue; that doesn't speak well to traditional kettlebell programming but rather something like strength training.

KBs are typically lot lower fatigue than powerlifting. I can get in a good KB workout and be tired but not dead, and not feel wrecked the next day. A hard DL + bench workout? I'm fried for at least a day. That's one reason I really like the KBs.

 

[Mcmoon]

I don't know. My powerlifting experience is really colored by frequent injuries (not usually lifting related) that forced me to take breaks, so I never got super strong. Maybe if I'd been able to lift consistently for years I'd place more value on it.

In general though I think you may have a point, powerlifting is great for establishing a base of strength but the benefit of higher maximal strength tapers quickly relative to power endurance for grappling. Now clearly a stronger man can lift a lighter weight more easily and frequently than a weaker man, but that strength usually comes with mass increases that somewhat hamper the utility of the strength.

Let's take the case of lifting a person of your size for a throw. If you weigh 180 and can squat 180 15 times, and you lift your way to being able to squat 180 30 times but now you weigh 220, the utility of that additional strength is minimal since now your sport requires you to squat 220 as many times as possible because now you're picking up dudes your own (larger) size. I feel like kettlebells give you the best ratio of power to endurance you're likely to find, plus I've found they help my joints and general recovery whereas powerlifting was always a huge energy sap.

That mass is only going to come with a decent and consistent calorie surplus and while getting stronger is far easier on a surplus it is not impossible even on a deficit so powerlifting in and of itself will add no direct mass unless accompanied by that surplus. The issue is many people start to lift heavy and start to eat more and of course gain weight. Just like grappling their are weight classes in powerlifting and if it added mass like people assume then competitors would not be able to continually compete within the same weight class while also increase their lifts.

I am currently cutting and have upped my squat on a consistent basis(down about 30 pounds and squat up about 20-30 pounds).

I do agree that KB can be good for conditioning though.

 

[Uchi Mata]

That mass is only going to come with a decent and consistent calorie surplus and while getting stronger is far easier on a surplus it is not impossible even on a deficit so powerlifting in and of itself will add no direct mass unless accompanied by that surplus. The issue is many people start to lift heavy and start to eat more and of course gain weight. Just like grappling their are weight classes in powerlifting and if it added mass like people assume then competitors would not be able to continually compete within the same weight class while also increase their lifts.

I am currently cutting and have upped my squat on a consistent basis(down about 30 pounds and squat up about 20-30 pounds).

I do agree that KB can be good for conditioning though.

With the exception of maybe the press, KBs are not going to be your best tool for maximal strength. I don't think anyone will argue that. They're really about power endurance and conditioning.

 

[Mcmoon]

With the exception of maybe the press, KBs are not going to be your best tool for maximal strength. I don't think anyone will argue that. They're really about power endurance and conditioning.

I was mostly just referring to powerlifting adding mass when it doesn't by itself.

 

[peregrine]

You might googled 'taming the beast kettlebells'.

Kettlebells: taming the beast

[YT]EFex6HhHao0[/YT]

I think if you look at this guy's physique vs. your average powerlifter, he's in much more the kind of shape most grapplers would want.

I have the book Taming the Beast by Andrew Read, in it some of the people who did it were bb fans who went on a short specialized program, while most worked there way up using the kb. I think it would be easier to build your way up using the bb, with some specialized work along the way using the kb.

Fyi people, the kb program originally mentioned by OP is mostly complexes.

 

[Chungungo]

I did very little powerlifting and olympic lifting and now I have a 20 kg kettlebell and well I can keep some endurance, for recreational judocas than compete once in a while is better than nothing but professionals can combine both I guess...

Sprints are also a great no weight excercise for power and randori endurance, of course the emphasis is in the legs---

 

[JosephDredd]

I do see your point, and I honestly am not sure. I've believed for so long that a basic strength routine is essential just to unlock the CNS potential before getting into any other routine, that I need to think about it more before changing my opinion.

Pavel Tsatsouline is all about CNS training. It's the primary form of training he advocates. And anyone who's tamed the beast is strong as fuck.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I did very little powerlifting and olympic lifting and now I have a 20 kg kettlebell and well I can keep some endurance, for recreational judocas than compete once in a while is better than nothing but professionals can combine both I guess...

Sprints are also a great no weight excercise for power and randori endurance, of course the emphasis is in the legs---

Hill sprints are my main leg strength exercise. Mostly because I have a bad back that squatting tends to exacerbate (though I love to squat, sucks I can't do a lot of it anymore), but the sprints have the nice side benefit of making weight just fall off. You're certainly not going to build the same strength as with a good squatting routine, but again it's more of a power endurance exercise.

 

[JosephDredd]

Still waiting to hear about the new program.

I'd say that many get plenty of mat fitness from sparring/training. I believe that ancillary work, if needed, should be low volume, incrimental, with plenty of rest and little fatigue; that doesn't speak well to traditional kettlebell programming but rather something like strength training.

What are you referring to when you say that? Girevoy training?

Low rep, non-fatigue work is Pavel Tsatsouline's basic approach to strength training, KBs or otherwise.

 

[lts5025]

I don't know. My powerlifting experience is really colored by frequent injuries (not usually lifting related) that forced me to take breaks, so I never got super strong. Maybe if I'd been able to lift consistently for years I'd place more value on it.

In general though I think you may have a point, powerlifting is great for establishing a base of strength but the benefit of higher maximal strength tapers quickly relative to power endurance for grappling. Now clearly a stronger man can lift a lighter weight more easily and frequently than a weaker man, but that strength usually comes with mass increases that somewhat hamper the utility of the strength.

Let's take the case of lifting a person of your size for a throw. If you weigh 180 and can squat 180 15 times, and you lift your way to being able to squat 180 30 times but now you weigh 220, the utility of that additional strength is minimal since now your sport requires you to squat 220 as many times as possible because now you're picking up dudes your own (larger) size. I feel like kettlebells give you the best ratio of power to endurance you're likely to find, plus I've found they help my joints and general recovery whereas powerlifting was always a huge energy sap.

Come on. You don't put on 40 lbs of lean mass without years of very hard work and very deliberate nutrition.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Come on. You don't put on 40 lbs of lean mass without years of very hard work and very deliberate nutrition.

The key word being 'lean'. Most powerlifters are not that lean (the exception being lighter weight guys near competitions). Whenever I got decent gains on lifts, I was eating like a bear. I suppose you could do a lot of heavy PL and not up your calorie intake, but I have to think you're going to feel like shit all the time and see minimal benefit. When you look at most beginner programs, SS being a great example, one of the main things they emphasize is drastically upping your calorie intake. You'll get bigger on GOMAD for sure, but it's not going to be all lean mass.

 

[lts5025]

The key word being 'lean'. Most powerlifters are not that lean (the exception being lighter weight guys near competitions). Whenever I got decent gains on lifts, I was eating like a bear. I suppose you could do a lot of heavy PL and not up your calorie intake, but I have to think you're going to feel like shit all the time and see minimal benefit. When you look at most beginner programs, SS being a great example, one of the main things they emphasize is drastically upping your calorie intake. You'll get bigger on GOMAD for sure, but it's not going to be all lean mass.

1) If a weight-class powerlifter can either stay lean or get lean in time for a competition, why wouldn't a weight-class judoka or BJJer?

2) If you gain 40lbs and half of that is body fat, that's still 20 lbs of lean mass. No easy feat.

3) SS or SL or whatever are programs that aren't meant to supplement grappling. All you do is lift and eat. Most serious competitors looking for strength gains are going to be able to put in that kind of volume, hence why a lot of grapplers run Wendler 2x a week.

 

[Uchi Mata]

1) If a weight-class powerlifter can either stay lean or get lean in time for a competition, why wouldn't a weight-class judoka or BJJer?

Depends on how often you compete and how much you're comfortable with your weight fluctuating.

3) SS or SL or whatever are programs that aren't meant to supplement grappling. All you do is lift and eat. Most serious competitors looking for strength gains are going to be able to put in that kind of volume, hence why a lot of grapplers run Wendler 2x a week.

I did exactly that (5/3/1 2x a week) and it worked pretty well, the main problem I had were injury related though I found that for me at least the gains topped out pretty early. I think I was at something like 380/260/225 for DL/squat/bench when I stopped making much progress on 2x a week, which is plenty strong enough for an amateur competitive grappler (in the 205 weight class) but not shit by PL standards. Since I hit that plateau (and wasn't willing to add volume or eat a lot more to get my #s up), I've found KBs have given me much more power endurance and I don't really feel any weaker. Stronger on the mat if anything.

My point in all of this isn't that PL is bad, it's that for me personally I've found that KBs have been better for developing the kind of strength/power endurance which is really valuable for grappling. They definitely aren't the best way to add raw strength, but I also think raw strength is overrated for competitive grappling. A good base of strength with the ability to generate sustained power output near your max is much more useful for tournaments where you might have 3-5 matches of 6-10 minutes each.

So yeah, if someone was totally new to resistance training, PL would probably get them to the necessary level of base strength much more quickly. But what then? I think KBs are a great next step to get in the most useful kind of shape for competitive grappling (in addition to just rolling a lot). I add in 2-3x a week of HIIT or sprint training too, though that's as much about weight loss as it is competition training.

 

[JosephDredd]

If anyone wants to add conditioning with a KB to their program, the easist and most cost-effective way to do that is to go to Tracy Riefkind's youtube channel and follow along to her workouts. (She might be THE authority on kettlebell swing programming. She's a beast.)

Here is the first vid (of at least nine) of a fully programmed beginner's workout based on one of her books:



There's a lot of rest time between swings, so it's perfect for you to practice your swing technique and, if you add 10 burpees after every set of swings, a way to really improve your conditioning.

You can do the same thing with this workouts because it has an easy work to rest ratio:



Here's a more intermediate workout, which compresses rest times:



If your technique is good and you want to just work kettlebell swings with very little rest and a huge volume, look up one of her advanced programs where she does 500-700 swings in 15 minutes, which is absolutely brutal.