Arab-Israeli Conflict: Part 1

[weed]

i hate any country that lobbies to corrupt politicians to steal american tax dollars and nobody does that more than israel. we give them billions AND our military technology so they can turn around and sell it to china. NSA also gives israel bulk data collected from innocent american citizens

as a vehemently pro-american person, how can i not dislike israel

he's one of those guys who will call you an "anti-Semite" for choosing America first.

 

[weed]

Why wouldn't I care about God? And who are you to say I don't? You are awfully arrogant and displaying behavior you wouldn't likely promote to your children would you?

I mean I know you are a grown man with a job, kids and wife. You don't find it odd that you obsess over me and internet beef with all your 'internet enemies' on sherdog?

you don't find it odd that I see through your gimmick, & you're still trying to hold on to it?

this is TWR. I'm one of the many always calling you out on your shit.


again, you're just mad I'm disrupting your shilling.

 

[Arkain2K]

Abbas turns screw on Hamas by cutting Gaza's electricity
By Nidal al-Mughrabi | Thu Apr 27, 2017

With the prospect looming of a Middle East peace initiative by a new U.S. administration more sympathetic to Israel, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has decided to turn the screw on the Hamas group that has kept Gaza out of his control for a decade.

Abbas's Western-backed Palestinian Authority (PA) on Thursday told Israel it would no longer pay for the electricity Israel supplies to Gaza, a move that could lead to a complete power shutdown in the territory, whose 2 million people already endure blackouts for much of the day.

Israel does not engage directly with Hamas, regarding the Islamist group as a terrorist organization.

The PA declined to say why it had taken the step, but had already put pressure on Hamas by withholding the Israeli fuel that until two weeks ago powered Gaza's only generating plant, and slashing the salaries of the civil servants who are one of the mainstays of Gaza's struggling economy.

Medical workers say health services are on the verge of breakdown, while shopkeepers say they are struggling.

Hamas official Ismail Rudwan reacted with fury, warning of "an explosion in the face of the Zionist occupation" and saying that anyone who had "collaborated with the occupation" would have cause for regret, whether from the PA or not.

"We will not pay a political price for this crime," he said.

Ostensibly, the reasons for the withholding of fuel and the salary cuts were non-payment of bills, and shortage of foreign donor funds.

But regaining a measure of control over Gaza could empower Abbas politically as Israel and the Palestinians await a widely expected push by U.S. President Donald Trump for a revival of peace efforts that stalled in 2014.

Palestinian Prime Minister Rami al-Hamdallah, based in the West Bank, made no secret of the PA's political motives on Wednesday, saying at an event in Ramallah that the lifting of the salary cut depended on Hamas moving towards reconciliation.

"I think there is a golden and historic chance to regain the unity of our people," he said. "Hamas should relinquish control of Gaza."

CIVIL WAR

Abbas's Fatah movement, which controls the PA, fought a brief civil war with Hamas in Gaza in 2007, which led to Hamas seizing full control of the territory a year after winning parliamentary elections there.

Several attempts at reconciliation, most recently in 2014, have failed to produce a power-sharing government for the West Bank and Gaza, and analysts say Abbas is now trying to force the issue.

Health officials say the Gaza Strip's 13 hospitals and 54 medical centers are running short of funds and fuel for emergency generators.

They say some 620 kidney patients in need of dialysis three times a week and newborns are at particular risk from blackouts, with generators at all the medical facilities using a total of some 2,000 liters of fuel per hour.

"All health services could stop within the coming few days," said Ashraf Al-Qidra, spokesman of the Gaza health ministry, calling on humanitarian organizations to offer more help.

The PA has also slashed the salaries of its 60,000 civil servants in Gaza - but not the West Bank - by 30 percent, offering no explanation other than a lack of foreign aid money.

The civil servants' pay is one of the few sources of steady income that trickle through the Gaza economy, and supports tens of thousands of extended families.

Store owners complain of the weakest sales in years.

"After God, the country (Gaza) depends on the salaries of the employees," said Fahd Abu Sultan, 28, a shoe salesman.

Economists said the wage cuts would also shrink the tax revenue collected by Hamas - which it in turn uses to pay the 40,000 employees it has hired in Gaza since 2007.

Hamdallah said Hamas should accept an Abbas initiative to form a true unity government immediately and then go to presidential and parliamentary elections, which have not been held for more than a decade.

"Let whoever wins rule," he said.

THORN IN ABBAS'S SIDE

Hamas has been a thorn in Abbas's side for his entire 12 years in office, but the 82-year-old appears to have been stung into fresh action by Trump's election.

In suggesting that he will try to revive Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, he has struck a much warmer tone than his predecessor towards Israel and its settlement building in occupied Palestinian territory, and thrown into doubt Washington's commitment to a Palestinian state alongside Israel.

Within weeks of Trump's election, Abbas took steps to shore up his authority in the West Bank by tightening his control of Fatah.

But his biggest weakness remains the fact that Gaza is controlled by a movement shunned as a terrorist group by the United States and the European Union, as well as Israel.

Hamas has, since its founding in 1987, advocated the destruction of Israel, seeking all of historic Palestine as its land, even if some of its leaders have indicated in recent years that they would accept a more limited Palestinian state on land occupied by Israel in 1967 in return for a long-term truce.

Political analyst Hani al-Masri wrote in a recent paper that Gaza's status "allows Israel and regional and international parties to continue to question the legitimacy of (Abbas's) leadership and his representation of all the Palestinians".

"President Abbas realizes that President Trump will ask him to be humble in his demands because 'you are weak and Gaza is under Hamas control and you have troubles inside Fatah'," he wrote.

"Therefore, Abu Mazen (Abbas) wants to go to Washington after it has received his message about the strong and decisive steps he has taken."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-gaza-abbas-idUSKBN17T1J0

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

shitting on israels scummy foreign policy doesnt make you an antisemite, israel shouldnt be immune to criticism

I agree. I recall being critical of Israel's Netanyahu for wanting more money. And being critical of Jonathan Pollard and Israeli spying.

I am however a realist and not a neoconservative. So I don't adopt the 'Russians and Chinese are evil' stuff. So in that regard I also understand why Israel looks out for itself and is increasingly close with Russia and tries to play nice with China.

The only neoconservative thing I agree with is how dangerous Iran is and North Korea. However I'd argue that today everyone not just neocons can understand how dangerous North Korea is and can realize that Iran is dangerous especially if they break their agreement with us.

This is probably the most surprising bit for me. Part of me wonders if they really, for some fucking reason, believe this or have internalized a fear of their own security forces to the extent that they wouldn't criticize them even in such an interview or maybe a mix of both.

So yeah to follow up my last comment.

I truly do believe those who are not well fed and paid are more inclined to take up radical Islam in the name of establishing another large caliphate.

 

[Arkain2K]

Trump, Abbas gear up for White House meeting
PA leader to meet US president for first time Wednesday in expected bid to revive peace talks
By Sarah Benhaida | May 1, 2017

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AFP) — US President Donald Trump will meet with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas Wednesday for their first face-to-face talks, with the PA leader hoping the billionaire businessman’s unpredictable approach can inject life into long-stalled peace efforts.

Abbas makes the trip to Washington while politically unpopular back home, but hoping Trump can pressure Israel into concessions he believes are necessary to salvage a two-state solution to the decades long conflict.

PA officials have seen the Israeli-Palestinian conflict overshadowed by global concerns such as the Syrian war and the Islamic State terror group, and want Trump’s White House to bring it back to the forefront.

“Palestinians are hoping that Trump’s unpredictability might play in their favor,” one Jerusalem-based European official told AFP on condition of anonymity.

“They are going to be very disappointed. They can’t be sure of anything.”

Examples were seen early on, with Trump appearing to back away from the US commitment to the two-state solution when he met Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in February.

US President Donald Trump and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hold a meeting in the Oval Office of the White House in Washington, DC, February 15, 2017.
​

He said he would support a single state if it led to peace, delighting many Israeli right-wingers who want to see their country annex most of the West Bank.

Trump also vowed to move the US embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, a prospect that alarmed Palestinians but which has been put on the back burner for now.

At the same time, he urged Israel to hold back on settlement building in the West Bank, a longstanding concern of Palestinians and the international community, who view settlements as an impediment to the eventual creation of a Palestinian state

One of Trump’s top advisers, Jason Greenblatt, held wide-ranging talks with both Israelis and Palestinians during a visit in March.

Abbas and Trump spoke by phone on March 11.

Pressuring Hamas?

Trump’s unpredictability is far from Abbas’s only concern, with polls suggesting most Palestinians want the 82-year-old to resign.

Abbas’s term was meant to expire in 2009, but he has remained in office with no elections held.

The bitter split between Abbas’s Fatah party, based in the West Bank, and Hamas, the Islamist terror group that runs the Gaza Strip, has also taken a new turn in recent days.

Some analysts say it seems Abbas is seeking to increase pressure on Hamas in the coastal strip, but he risks being blamed for worsening conditions in the enclave of two million people.

Gaza supporters of the Hamas terror group hold crossed-out portraits of PA President Mahmoud Abbas (C) and PM Rami Hamdallah during a protest on April 14, 2017, in Khan Yunis. ​

Israeli officials say the PA, which is dominated by Abbas’s Fatah party, has begun refusing to pay Israel for electricity it supplies to Gaza.

Rights activists and Israeli military officials have warned that exacerbating an already severe power shortage in the strip, which was been largely under an Israeli and Egyptian blockade for 10 years, could be catastrophic.

The reported move comes after the PA announced earlier in April it would temporarily cut stipends to its Gaza civil servants.

The PA said it was forced into cutbacks by falling foreign aid, but others alleged it could be aimed at stirring discontent in Gaza and destabilizing Hamas’s rule there.

Regional support

With those difficulties in mind, Abbas may face demands from Trump that could be “political suicide” for him to implement, the European official said.

Such demands may include stopping payments to families of Palestinian terrorists imprisoned by Israel, a policy heavily criticized by Netanyahu as encouraging further violence.

US lawmakers have also strongly condemned the stipends to the families of Palestinian terrorists and Republican Senator Lindsey Graham (South Carolina) reintroduced a bill in March that would cut off US funding to the PA as a result of the payments.

Doing so could further open Abbas to accusations of bending to Israel’s will, particularly with one of his rivals in Fatah, convicted terrorist Marwan Barghouti, leading a hunger strike involving hundreds of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails since April 17.

Barghouti is serving five life sentences over his role directing terror attacks in the Second Intifada, but he is popular and polls suggest he could win the presidency of the PA in an election.

Trump has spoken of reviving the idea of a regional peace initiative, pulling in countries such as Egypt and Jordan, the only two Arab nations to have signed peace treaties with Israel.

Both Abbas and Trump have recently met Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi and Jordanian King Abdullah II.

On the sidelines of the 28th Arab League Summit on March 29, 2017, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas (R) meets with King Abdullah II of Jordan (C) and Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi. ​

After meeting Abbas on Saturday, Sissi urged Washington to help restart negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

Jamal Shubaki, the PA ambassador to Egypt, said Abbas, Sissi and Abdullah shared the same goal of explaining “to the new American administration their attachment to the Arab peace initiative.”

The proposal made in 2002 holds out normalized ties between Arab nations and Israel in exchange for the creation of a Palestinian state with a capital in East Jerusalem, the return of refugees and other key Palestinian demands.

Abbas’s visit also comes amid speculation about when Trump will visit Israel.

Israeli officials and media have said that talks about a visit were underway, with the trip tentatively scheduled for May 22.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/trump-abbas-gear-up-for-white-house-meeting/

 

[Arkain2K]

In Palestinian Power Struggle, Hamas Moderates Talk on Israel
By IAN FISHER | MAY 1, 2017

Members of the Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Hamas movement, in the Gaza Strip last year.
​

JERUSALEM — Hamas, the militant group built around violent resistance to Israel, sought on Monday to present a more moderate public face, taking its next shot in an intensifying struggle for leadership of the Palestinian cause and international recognition.

Released by Hamas just days before its chief rival, the Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas, was to meet President Trump, a new document of principles for the group calls for closer ties to Egypt, waters down the anti-Semitic language from its charter, and accepts at least a provisional Palestinian state — though it still does not formally recognize Israel.

With its statement, Hamas is trying to offer a more mainstream-friendly version of its vision for the Palestinian cause, and to gain ground against Mr. Abbas, whose influence is growing more tenuous.

Mr. Abbas is 82 years old, and his rivals within his own Fatah movement are increasingly open about the struggle to succeed him. Seeking to regain the initiative, he has recently waged a crackdown on Hamas, cutting salaries due to them from the Palestinian Authority and refusing to pay for electricity in the militant group’s power base in Gaza.

The split between the two groups — Fatah in the West Bank, Hamas in Gaza — has stood as one of the major obstacles in the peace process with Israel: Who, the Israelis ask, is their partner if the Palestinians are so deeply divided? That division has also been convenient for, and encouraged by, those on the Israeli right who do not want a peace deal.

But the Hamas document, which has been leaking for weeks, is less a change in Hamas’s fundamental beliefs than a challenge for the credibility of Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank, as well as internationally.

“Whether it’s a coincidence or it’s connected, I have one thing to say: The Palestinian leadership is afraid of this Hamas moderation,” said Mkhaimar Abusada, a political scientist at Al-Azhar University-Gaza. “Because the P.A. and Fatah are afraid that by this moderation, Hamas presents itself as the true representation of the Palestinian people,” he said, referring to the Palestinian Authority.

The official release came at a telling time and place: Hamas officials, normally secretive, held several events on Monday in Doha, the capital of Qatar, an American ally that would play a crucial role in a deal between the Israelis and Palestinians, which Mr. Trump is pushing.

Mr. Abbas was scheduled to meet with Mr. Trump in Washington on Wednesday as the sole representative of the Palestinian people.

Experts on all sides of the complex struggle here say the new document is unlikely to represent any profound change in Hamas’s true position toward Israel. The group recently chose a hard-liner, Yehya Sinwar, as its new leader in Gaza, and it has still in no way recognized Israel or renounced violence.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel quickly denounced the move. “Hamas’s document is a smoke screen,” he said in a statement. “We see Hamas continuing to invest all of its resources not just in preparing for war with Israel, but also in educating the children of Gaza to want to destroy Israel.”

Hamas is still considered a terrorist group by much of the West, including the United States, a status that has led to its exclusion from wider international talks about the Palestinians’ future.

Fawzi Barhoum, a Hamas spokesman in Gaza, said the group had to move beyond its original charter to achieve its goals. “The document gives us a chance to connect with the outside world,” he said. “To the world, our message is: Hamas is not radical. We are a pragmatic and civilized movement. We do not hate the Jews. We only fight who occupies our lands and kills our people.”

The document is a distillation of various public statements over the years signaling an attempt by Hamas to appear more pragmatic since it seized broad control of Gaza in 2007, after winning parliamentary elections a year earlier. Four years in the drafting, the document represents the consensus of Hamas’s top leadership.

The paper calls for Hamas to distance itself from the Muslim Brotherhood in an effort to build stronger ties with Egypt, which controls the Gaza Strip’s southern border. It reiterates the Hamas leadership’s view that it is open to a Palestinian state along the borders established after the 1967 war, though it does not renounce future claims to Palestinian rule over what is now Israel. And the group specifically weakened language from its 1988 charter proclaiming Jews as enemies and comparing their views to Nazism, though the new document does not replace the original charter.

“Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish, but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine,” the new document states.

Mr. Abbas is increasingly unpopular at home, though he is the recognized conduit to the wider world, and the race for succession is clearly heating up. And while the well-trained Palestinian Authority security forces have kept a tight check on Hamas in the West Bank, Fatah always fears support or action waiting in the wings.

In Fatah, Marwan Barghouti, a popular figure among Palestinians who is serving five life sentences for murders in the second intifada, is leading a hunger strike in Israeli jails, now two weeks old, that some experts say is aimed at raising his credibility as a leader.

Mr. Trump has expressed a desire for a peace process that brings in Sunni Arab nations aligned against Shiite Iran, itself allied with Hamas, even as Hamas seeks to become closer to those same Sunni nations.

“The P.A. and Hamas compete to get embraced by Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Arab states, but it seems the Arab embrace is not enough for two women,” said Fayez Abu Shamala, a Palestinian writer and political analyst close to Hamas.

The new document, however, reveals a greater pragmatism and willingness to engage with the outside world, he said. “Hamas will be an influential political body in the next phase.”

In Israel, which has fought three wars with Hamas since 2008, the document was greeted with skepticism.

“Not even one mind” will be changed in Israel, said Yossi Kuperwasser, a retired Israeli brigadier general who led the army’s research arm. “Nobody will be affected by this.”

Mr. Kuperwasser called it a “sugarcoating” of old positions that did not renounce Hamas’s original charter and did not recognize Israel’s right to exist. He did say, however, that it could be problematic for Mr. Abbas because the Palestinian Authority and Hamas platforms appear to be growing closer.

In the document, Hamas reiterates that Palestinians who fled or were expelled during wars with Israelis have the right to return — largely a nonstarter in successive peace negotiations with Israel. And it does not renounce violence; “resistance” continues to be a main source of strength and credibility.

“Hamas rejects any attempt to undermine the resistance and its arms. It also affirms the right of our people to develop the means and mechanisms of resistance,” the document says. “Hamas confirms that the resistance leadership can decide the level of resistance and can utilize a variety of the different tools and ways to administrate the conflict, without compromising the resistance.”

In distancing itself from the Muslim Brotherhood, analysts said, Hamas was likely to improve its often-strained relationship with Egypt, even if it was unlikely to open the border between Egypt and Gaza for trade.

“It’s a huge step for Hamas, but I think they should temper their expectations about the reaction from the Egyptians,” said Abdelrahman Ayyash, a researcher on Islamist movements who is based in Istanbul.

Under President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, Egypt frequently accuses Hamas of aiding Islamist militants in attacks against Egyptian security forces in Sinai and Egypt’s main cities. Egyptian security officials and pro-government news outlets accuse Hamas, often without proof, of providing militants with training and guns.

At the same time, Egyptian intelligence has quietly renewed its relationship with Hamas in recent years, in an effort to secure Sinai and to bolster Egypt’s role as a mediator in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Before Mr. Abbas’s visit to Washington, the Egyptians are keen to establish their role as potential peacemakers. After a meeting between Mr. Sisi and Mr. Abbas in Cairo on Saturday, the Egyptian president’s office issued a statement that noted Egypt’s “pivotal role” and urged Palestinian unity as “essential to put an end to the plight of the Palestinian people.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/world/middleeast/hamas-fatah-palestinians-document.html

 

[Arkain2K]

New Hamas charter acknowledges "1967 borders" ahead of Abbas US visit
Joshua Mitnick and Rushdi Abu Alouf | May 2, 2017

Hamas leaders and supporters in Gaza City listen to Khaled Mashaal, the outgoing Hamas leader in exile, launch the new document from Doha, Qatar, on Monday​

Gaza City: Hamas, the Palestinian Islamist group that has authority over the population of the Gaza Strip, released a new manifesto on Monday moderating its position toward Israel - if only slightly - and distancing itself from rival Islamist groups in the Middle East.

The new declaration, an apparent attempt to reverse Hamas' increasing isolation, is the first revision of the group's charter since it was founded during the first Palestinian intifada three decades ago as a militant underground faction devoted to a religious war to destroy Israel.

The new document endorses the goal of establishing a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank, with Jerusalem as its capital, as part of a "national consensus" among Palestinians. While that may be a tacit acknowledgment of Israel's existence, the revision stops well short of recognising Israel and reasserts calls for armed resistance toward a "complete liberation of Palestine from the river to the sea".

The document was announced in Doha, Qatar, the base of Hamas' politburo leader, Khaled Meshaal.

"We are ready to cooperate with Arab or any other international effort to achieve our people's goals, get rid of the occupation, and establish a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders,'' Meshaal said. The leader said Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organisation by Israel, the United States and the European Union, still rejects "the Zionist entity" and the Oslo peace accords.

The manifesto is likely to rekindle a long-running debate over whether the organisation's political moderates, who have talked of recognising the boundary lines that existed before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war and agreeing to a long-term cease-fire with Israel, might one day accept a peace deal with Israel.

"To accept the creation of the Palestinian state on the 1967 lines is quite significant - it's a de facto recognition that there will be something on the other side," said Bjorn Brenner, a researcher on Palestinian politics at the Swedish Defence University and the author of a book on Hamas.

The manifesto, approved as an addendum to the original charter rather than an entirely new document, recast the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as a political battle with the "Zionist project" - Hamas' pseudonym for Israel. Hamas' fight, according to the document is "not with the Jews because of their religion".

The 1988 declaration portrayed a religious battle between Islam and world Jewry, and invoked the anti-Semitic treatise The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Anything short of recognition of Israel, a renunciation of violence and an endorsement of bilateral peace negotiations - three conditions for recognition established by Western countries - is unlikely to impress Israeli leaders. Israel has also demanded that Hamas dismantle the military bases, rockets and cross-border tunnels it has in Gaza as a condition for easing its blockade of the coastal territory. The new manifesto dismisses "any attempt to undermine the resistance and its arms".

"Hamas is attempting to fool the world, but it will not succeed," said a statement from the Israeli Prime Minister's office. "Daily, Hamas leaders call for genocide of all Jews and the destruction of Israel."

Dore Gold, a former director general of Israel's Foreign Ministry, accused Hamas' military wing of relying on support from Iran and also working with Islamic State's Egyptian arm in the Sinai Peninsula.

The declaration also redefines Hamas as a solely Palestinian movement, rather than as a branch of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood as it did at its founding. The change was apparently an effort to improve ties with Cairo's government.

The "Document of General Principles and Polices" - which took four years to prepare - reflects an effort by the militant group to adjust to the political upheavals across the Middle East in recent years that have bruised relations with allies and to internal Palestinian politics.

It also comes at a time of transition in its leadership: Earlier this year, the group selected a hard-line military commander, Yahya Sinwar, as its chief in Gaza and is about to announce a successor to Meshaal.

"The document is intended to reach out and establish ties with the international community," said Mkhaimar Abusada, a political science professor at Gaza's al-Azhar University.

"It will allow Hamas to establish new ties with Arab, Muslim and other countries ... but unless Hamas accepts the two-state solution, I don't think the US or the EU" will recognise the organisation, he said.

The policy manifesto was announced as Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas prepares to meet with US President Donald Trump at the White House on Wednesday.

Accepting the June 1967 border is an attempt to bring Hamas' position closer to that of Abbas' Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), while appealing to broad sentiment among Palestinians who think their leaders shouldn't disavow armed attacks on Israel as the PLO did when it began peace negotiations in the 1990s.

Osama Qawasmi, a spokesman for the Fatah movement, to which Abbas belongs, said the new political document is identical to one adopted by the PLO in 1988, and accused Hamas of sowing a split among the Palestinians through 30 years of "treachery".

"The timing of the Hamas announcement undercuts any momentum Abbas would get on his first visit to the White House in three years," said Grant Rumley, a research fellow at the Foundation for Defence of Democracies, a Washington think tank focusing on national security and foreign policy.

"It's to say, 'Our position isn't so different from Abbas, and while he's in Washington, we are here suffering in Gaza'."

http://www.smh.com.au/world/new-ham...-ahead-of-abbas-us-visit-20170502-gvx0gg.html

 

[Arkain2K]

Opinion: President Trump Offers a Rare Chance for a Palestinian Peace Deal
By Jibril Rajoub On 5/1/17

Member of the Fatah Central Committee Jibril Rajoub writes that it’s time that the Palestinians and the Israelis get their acts together, stop bleeding each other, put an end to a stifling occupation, separate into two states, then cooperate in the task of securing peaceful neighborly relations.​

On the eve of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’s summit with President Trump in the White House scheduled for May 3, we in the Palestinian leadership are determined to seize this opportunity to achieve the long overdue two-state vision.

President Trump, speaking at a press conference with Jordan’s King Abdullah on April 5, reiterated his hope to "be successful in finally finding peace between the Palestinian people and Israel."

We are therefore convinced more than ever that, with impartial support from the US, this peace is still possible, however distant it may seem today.

To that end, we look forward to cooperating with his administration in seeking an end to the Israeli occupation and concluding the ultimate deal: a just Israeli-Palestinian peace, and in its wake a comprehensive Arab-Israeli peace.

Palestinian leadership believes that a peace agreement, based on mutual recognition between Palestine and Israel, will mark the end of the conflict and finality of claims.

This agreement must fulfill Palestinian national aspirations by including the following elements: the contiguous territory of sovereign, independent Palestine comprising the West Bank and Gaza, with East Jerusalem as its capital; the border based on the 1967 line with equal swaps; and the solution to the long suffering of stateless Palestinian refugees that is just and agreed.

Regarding security, we do not wish to argue with Israel’s perceived concerns. But addressing them cannot and will not serve as an excuse for infringement on Palestinian sovereignty.

Indeed, both peoples will enjoy true security only when Palestinians and Israelis enhance coordination against those seeking to undermine a genuine peace process and the two-state outcome.

Moreover, the prospects for a bilateral deal – and broader regional stability – will improve once our Arab partners actively support the process, embrace its outcome and engage in a regional security framework.

The majority of Palestinians will support this process, overwhelmingly sanction its outcome in a national referendum and then back its leadership when dealing with possible dissent.

To be sure, the road to this end result is not easy. Even with capable and determined American diplomacy and a successful mobilization of a supportive Arab and international coalition, resolving all core issues will be challenging.

Israel and its allies will need to internalize two fundamental truths.

First, the Palestinian people have no enemy but the illegal, immoral and inhumane Israeli occupation. We shall never compromise with that enemy. This occupation is also the enemy of the many Israelis who want this untenable conflict to end.

This common enemy is the root and only cause of this conflict. Whatever ensues is merely a consequence that would dissipate the instant the cause is eliminated. Jews are not our enemies; any claim to the contrary is not just false, but a deliberate attempt to undermine peacemaking in hopes of perpetuating this illegal occupation.

Second, there is no “status quo.” This is another catchphrase spun by the pro-settlement camp in Israel to undercut the sense of urgency for meaningful international intervention in order to buy time for the fervent effort to create a fait accompli on the ground that would render the realization of a two-state solution impossible.

This is the reason for Israel’s ongoing expansion of settlements, which saw a 40 percent increase in construction in 2016. These violations, along with daily suffering that the occupation inflicts upon our beleaguered people in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, not only contradict the "status quo" claim but threaten to spark another round of futile violence, intensifying mutual hostility.

This has to stop forthwith, and we commend President Trump's call to hold-off on settlement activities.

As in Israel, we too have a minority that is skeptical about a two-state solution. Such opposition on both sides, however vehemently expressed, must not serve as an excuse for inaction.

It is the responsibility of both leaderships to rally support for peace. Both have one major asset to build upon: a majority on both sides supports the two-state solution despite decades of conflict and incitement by anti-peace fear-mongers.

Speaking for my people, I can state emphatically that, once free and independent, most Palestinians will view Israel as our future prosperous neighbor, living alongside Palestine in peace and security.

We understand the challenges we face on the way to this hoped-for destination. At the negotiating table, we will face tough Israeli negotiators. On the street, we will encounter pervasive skepticism. On the ground, we will have to stand up to spoilers’ efforts to derail the process.

But we shall prevail. We are ready for the triple effort of tough negotiations, checking spoilers and persuading our people to give peace a chance.

However, we need partners: Israelis to demonstrate the sincerity of their intentions; the US to exhibit impartiality in navigating the process; our Arab brothers to stand by us to redress the imbalance between the powerful, sovereign Israel and the barely autonomous Palestine.

As we will accept no solution but a two-state one, leadership must get us there before Israelis and Palestinians inflict more pain on each other. The challenges of resolving the conflict will only become more daunting.

We are not going anywhere. Israelis and Palestinians will reside between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea forever. It’s time we get our acts together, stop bleeding each other, put an end to a stifling occupation, separate into two states, then cooperate in the task of securing peaceful neighborly relations.

In June our people will commemorate the 50 th anniversary of the Israeli occupation. The Trump administration is offering an opportunity to bring an end to this decades-long conflict and mark the beginning of a new era of peace, security and historic reconciliation. Let us not miss the Trump opportunity.

Jibril Rajoub is Secretary General of the Fatah Central Committee, the head of the Palestinian Football Association and the Palestine Olympic Committee and a former national security advisor for the President of the State of Palestine.

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-offers-rare-chance-palestinian-peace-deal-592153

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

New Hamas charter acknowledges "1967 borders" ahead of Abbas US visit
Joshua Mitnick and Rushdi Abu Alouf | May 2, 2017

Hamas leaders and supporters in Gaza City listen to Khaled Mashaal, the outgoing Hamas leader in exile, launch the new document from Doha, Qatar, on Monday​

http://www.smh.com.au/world/new-ham...-ahead-of-abbas-us-visit-20170502-gvx0gg.html

Good update man.



I really hope people can start to realize that even 1967 borders is too much for Palestinians so long as they have been and continue to be represented by radicals.

^^ At the least Israel should retain control over Western Samaria and all of Jerusalem.


I wonder if some good legitimate liberal leaning posters were aware of the fact that 70% of the Jewish population lives downrange from mountains they might change their stance on how 'great' 1967 borders are. And realize that 1967 borders are not defensible for Israel, at the least Israel needs control of Western Samaria.

I wonder if @M3t4tr0n, @Quipling, @JDragon, @MicroBrew and many others could see this. I just couldn't imagine the USA, Russia, China, France, or the UK being okay with this situation if they were in Israel's position. In fact I think we all know that they would of already expelled people and gone to war to achieve their 'security' zone'.

 

[JDragon]

Good update man.



I really hope people can start to realize that even 1967 borders is too much for Palestinians so long as they have been and continue to be represented by radicals.

^^ At the least Israel should retain control over Western Samaria and all of Jerusalem.


I wonder if some good legitimate liberal leaning posters were aware of the fact that 70% of the Jewish population lives downrange from mountains they might change their stance on how 'great' 1967 borders are. And realize that 1967 borders are not defensible for Israel, at the least Israel needs control of Western Samaria.

I wonder if @M3t4tr0n, @Quipling, @JDragon, @MicroBrew and many others could see this. I just couldn't imagine the USA, Russia, China, France, or the UK being okay with this situation if they were in Israel's position. In fact I think we all know that they would of already expelled people and gone to war to achieve their 'security' zone'.

Conversely, there can be no viable Palestenian state unless Israel withdraws from a majority of its West Bank settlements.

And both sides are represented by radicals tbf. Israel is not allowing the development of a prosperous Palestenian state because of what it might turn into. They cannot be surprised this breeds radicalism, though.

There is so many layers to this conflict.

1) water and access to it
2) religion and the question of Jerusalem
3) emotion and the feeling of justice being a necessity, whatever this means
4) demographics, including the fact that there are many Arab Israelis and a proportion of young males in Palestine areas that is not sustainable
5) geographic
6) military / strategic as mentioned by @SouthoftheAndes

Solving just a single one of those is nigh impossible. I do not think anybody believes it can be done for all of them. That ship has sailed in the 1990s. Israel with its current radical government has zero interest of making any concessions in any area, Hamas wants to talk because frankly it cannot become worse for them really and being recognized as a force of change with Israel being obstructionist is bad for Israel.

 

[Arkain2K]

I honestly think this is probably the region's last chance for peace.

Currently, it seems almost impossible. Once the radical nuts replaces Abbas and Netanyahu, it would definitely be impossible.

Also, the op-ed from the Fatah official up there proves that the Palestinians STILL don't understand their "Arab brothers" don't give a shit about them, and are actually the very root cause for their sufferings in the first place:

However, we need partners: Israelis to demonstrate the sincerity of their intentions; the US to exhibit impartiality in navigating the process; our Arab brothers to stand by us to redress the imbalance between the powerful, sovereign Israel and the barely autonomous Palestine.

Instead of asking Israel to turn back time and agree to the things that the Arabs rejected and went to war over, the Palestinians should ask all the representatives from the Arab League who interfered with the original UN partition plan of 1947 to make amends, as THEY are the reason why there's such a thing as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

At the very beginning of the peace talk, Jared Kushner should have both sides sit down and read the first article in this thread, so they can realize that they are BOTH victims of Arabs aggression, and it is the Arabs who should be offering reparations to help end the conflict they started.

The Arabs' Historic Mistakes in Their Interactions with Israel
By Fred Maroun | July 10, 2016​

• We Arabs managed our relationship with Israel atrociously, but the worst of all is the ongoing situation of the Palestinians.
• Our worst mistake was in not accepting the United Nations partition plan of 1947.
  
• Perhaps one should not launch wars if one is not prepared for the results of possibly losing them.
  
• The Jews are not keeping the Arabs in camps, we are.
  
• Jordan integrated some refugees, but not all. We could have proven that we Arabs are a great and noble people, but instead we showed the world, as we continue to do, that our hatred towards each other and towards Jews is far greater than any concept of purported Arab solidarity.

In May 1948, Azzam Pasha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, announced, regarding the proposed new Jewish part of the partition: that, "This will be a war of extermination, a momentous massacre, which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."​

In the current state of the relationship between the Arab world and Israel, we see a patchwork of hostility, tense peace, limited cooperation, calm, and violence. We Arabs managed our relationship with Israel atrociously, but the worst of all is the ongoing situation of the Palestinians.

The Original Mistake

Our first mistake lasted centuries, and occurred well before Israel's declaration of independence in May 1948. It consisted of not recognizing Jews as equals.

As documented by a leading American scholar of Jewish history in the Muslim world, Mark R. Cohen, during that era, "Jews shared with other non-Muslims the status of dhimmis [non-Muslims who have to pay protection money and follow separate debasing laws to be tolerated in Muslim-controlled areas] ... New houses of worship were not to be built and old ones could not be repaired. They were to act humbly in the presence of Muslims. In their liturgical practice they had to honor the preeminence of Islam. They were further required to differentiate themselves from Muslims by their clothing and by eschewing symbols of honor. Other restrictions excluded them from positions of authority in Muslim government".

On March 1, 1944, while the Nazis were massacring six million Jews, and well before Israel declared independence, Haj Amin al-Husseini, then Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, declared on Radio Berlin, "Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."

If we had not made this mistake, we might have benefited in two ways.

Jews would likely have remained in the Muslim Middle East in greater numbers, and they would have advanced the Middle Eastern civilization rather than the civilizations of the places to which they fled, most notably Europe and later the United States.

Secondly, if Jews felt secure and accepted in the Middle East among Arabs, they may not have felt the need to create an independent state, which would have saved us from our subsequent mistakes.

The Worst Mistake

Our second and worst mistake was in not accepting the United Nations partition plan of 1947. UN resolution 181 provided the legal basis for a Jewish state and an Arab state sharing what used to be British-controlled Mandatory Palestine.

As reported by the BBC, that resolution provided for:

"A Jewish State covering 56.47% of Mandatory Palestine (excluding Jerusalem) with a population of 498,000 Jews and 325,000 Arabs; An Arab State covering 43.53% of Mandatory Palestine (excluding Jerusalem), with 807,000 Arab inhabitants and 10,000 Jewish inhabitants; An international trusteeship regime in Jerusalem, where the population was 100,000 Jews and 105,000 Arabs."​

Although the land allocated to the Jewish state was slightly larger than the land allocated to the Arab state, much of the Jewish part was total desert, the Negev and Arava, with the fertile land allocated to the Arabs. The plan was also to the Arabs' advantage for two other reasons:

• The Jewish state had only a bare majority of Jews, which would have given the Arabs almost as much influence as the Jews in running the Jewish state, but the Arab state was almost purely Arab, providing no political advantage to Jews within it.
• Each proposed state consisted of three more-or-less disconnected pieces, resulting in strong geographic interdependence between the two states. If the two states were on friendly terms, they would likely have worked in many ways as a single federation. In that federation, Arabs would have had a strong majority.

Instead of accepting that gift of a plan when we still could, we Arabs decided that we could not accept a Jewish state, period. In May 1948, Azzam Pasha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, announced, regarding the proposed new Jewish part of the partition: that, "This will be a war of extermination, a momentous massacre, which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." We initiated a war intended to eradicate the new state in its infancy, but we lost, and the result of our mistake was a much stronger Jewish state:

• The Jewish majority of the Jewish state grew dramatically due to the exchange of populations that occurred, with many Arabs fleeing the war in Israel and many Jews fleeing a hostile Arab world to join the new state.
• The Jews acquired additional land during the war we launched, resulting in armistice lines (today called the green lines or pre-1967 lines), which gave Israel a portion of the land previously allocated to the Arab state. The Jewish state also acquired much better contiguity, while the Arab portions became divided into two parts (Gaza and the West Bank) separated by almost 50 kilometers.

Perhaps one should not launch wars if one is not prepared for the results of possibly losing them.

More Wars and More Mistakes

After the War of Independence (the name that the Jews give to the war of 1947/1948), Israel was for all practical purposes confined to the land within the green lines. Israel had no authority or claim over Gaza and the West Bank. We Arabs had two options if we had chosen to make peace with Israel at that time:

• We could have incorporated Gaza into Egypt, and the West Bank into Jordan, providing the Palestinians with citizenship in one of two relatively strong Arab countries, both numerically and geographically stronger than Israel.
• We could have created a new state in Gaza and the West Bank.

Instead, we chose to continue the hostilities with Israel. In the spring of 1967, we formed a coalition to attack Israel. On May 20, 1967, Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad stated, "The time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." On May 27, 1967, Egypt's President Abdul Nasser declared, "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel". In June, it took Israel only six days to defeat us and humiliate us in front of the world. In that war, we lost much more land, including Gaza and the West Bank.

After the war of 1967 (which Jews call the Six-Day War), Israel offered us land for peace, thereby offering us a chance to recover from the mistake of the Six-Day War. We responded with the Khartoum Resolutions, stating, "No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, and no negotiations with Israel".

Not having learned from 1967, we formed yet another coalition in October 1973 and tried again to destroy Israel. We achieved some gains, but then the tide turned and we lost again. After this third humiliating defeat, our coalition against Israel broke up, and Egypt and Jordan even decided to make peace with Israel.

The rest of us remained stubbornly opposed to Israel's very existence, even Syria which, like Egypt and Jordan, had lost land to Israel during the Six-Day War. Today Israel still holds that territory, and there is no real prospect for that land ever going back to Syria; Israel's Prime Minister recently declared that, "Israel will never leave the Golan Heights".

The Tragedy of the Palestinians

The most reprehensible and the most tragic of our mistakes is the way that we Arabs have treated Palestinians since Israel's declaration of independence.

The Jews of Israel welcomed Jewish refugeesfrom Arab and other Muslim lands into the Israeli fold, regardless of the cost or the difficulty in integrating people with very different backgrounds. Israel eagerly integrated refugees from far-away lands, including Ethiopia, India, Morocco, Brazil, Iran, Ukraine, and Russia. By doing so, they demonstrated the powerful bond that binds Jews to each other. At the same time, we had the opportunity similarly to show the bond that binds Arabs together, but instead of welcoming Arab refugees from the 1947/48 war, we confined them to camps with severe restrictions on their daily lives.

In Lebanon, as reported by Amnesty International, "Palestinians continue to suffer discrimination and marginalization in the labor market which contribute to high levels of unemployment, low wages and poor working conditions. While the Lebanese authorities recently lifted a ban on 50 of the 70 jobs restricted to them, Palestinians continue to face obstacles in actually finding employment in them. The lack of adequate employment prospects leads a high drop-out rate for Palestinian schoolchildren who also have limited access to public secondary education. The resultant poverty is exacerbated by restrictions placed on their access to social services".

Yet, Lebanon and Syria could not integrate refugees that previously lived a few kilometers away from the country's borders and who shared with the country's people almost identical cultures, languages, and religions. Jordan integrated some refugees but not all. We could have proven that we Arabs are a great and noble people, but instead we showed the world, as we continue to do, that our hatred towards each other and towards Jews is far greater than any concept of purported Arab solidarity. Shamefully to us, seven decades after the Palestinian refugees fled Israel, their descendants are still considered refugees.

The worst part of the way we have treated Palestinian refugees is that even within the West Bank and Gaza, there remains to this day a distinction between Palestinian refugees and native Palestinians. In those lands, according to the year 2010 numbers provided by Palestinian Refugee ResearchNet at McGill University, 37% of Palestinians within the West Bank and Gaza live in camps! Gaza has eight Palestinian refugee camps, and the West bank has nineteen. The Jews are not keeping the Arabs in camps, we are. Palestinian President Mahmood Abbas claims a state on those lands, but we can hardly expect him to be taken seriously when he leaves the Palestinian refugees under his authority in camps and cannot even integrate them with other Palestinians. The ridiculousness of the situation is rivaled only by its callousness.

Where We Are Now

Because of our own mistakes, our relationship with Israel today is a failure. The only strength in our economies is oil, a perishable resource and, with fracking, diminishing in value. We have not done nearly enough to prepare for the future when we will need inventiveness and productivity. According to Foreign Policy Magazine, "Although Arab governments have long recognized the need to shift away from an excessive dependence on hydrocarbons, they have had little success in doing so. ... Even the United Arab Emirates' economy, one of the most diversified in the Gulf, is highly dependent on oil exports".

Business Insider rated Israel in 2015 as the world's third most innovative country. Countries from all over the world take advantage of Israel's creativity, including countries as remote and as advanced as Japan. Yet we snub Israel, an innovation powerhouse that happens to be at our borders.

We also fail to take advantage of Israel's military genius to help us fight new and devastating enemies such as ISIS.

Worst of all, one of our own people, the Palestinians, are dispersed -- divided, disillusioned, and utterly incapable of reviving the national project that we kidnapped from under their feet in 1948 and that we have since disfigured beyond recognition.

To say that we must change our approach towards Israel is an understatement. There are fundamental changes that we ourselves must make, and we must find the courage and moral fortitude to make them.

The Jews are not keeping the Arabs in camps, we are.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8388/arabs-israel-historic-mistakes

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

Conversely, there can be no viable Palestenian state unless Israel withdraws from a majority of its West Bank settlements.

And both sides are represented by radicals tbf. Israel is not allowing the development of a prosperous Palestenian state because of what it might turn into. They cannot be surprised this breeds radicalism, though.

There is so many layers to this conflict.

1) water and access to it
2) religion and the question of Jerusalem
3) emotion and the feeling of justice being a necessity, whatever this means
4) demographics, including the fact that there are many Arab Israelis and a proportion of young males in Palestine areas that is not sustainable
5) geographic
6) military / strategic as mentioned by @SouthoftheAndes

Solving just a single one of those is nigh impossible. I do not think anybody believes it can be done for all of them. That ship has sailed in the 1990s. Israel with its current radical government has zero interest of making any concessions in any area, Hamas wants to talk because frankly it cannot become worse for them really and being recognized as a force of change with Israel being obstructionist is bad for Israel.

I agree in any deal Israel would need to withdraw from all other territories. I just think that any deal that happens that Israel must get Western Samaria.


There is literally no other way they could keep their population truly safe and have defensible borders if they give up control of the Samarian hills and mountains (most of Western or nearly all of Samaria) to a possibly armed Palestinian state which could in theory import more Palestinian refugees and Arabs from other states or enemies who wish to do harm to Israel. Judea is of lesser concern in my opinion since it is far enough away from Israel's main industry and population centers. And I don't see why Hebron couldn't remain as it is and why a corridor that is under Israeli control couldn't be allowed from Gaza to the West Bank. Judea

Although, I think ideally all Palestinian territories would be contiguous and not cut across Israeli lines. So ideally Palestinians would leave the Gaza Strip and would retain eastern Samaria, Jordan Valley, and Judea. Israel controlling the Jordan valley is cool and all but doesn't really do much and in terms of security all they need is the high ground, but actually settling the Jordan valley is not their priority really. In general though I am a fan of contiguous borders, I think they really do solve a lot of problems. Take the Nagorno Karabakh issue, the only realistic way that can be resolved in my opinion is via contiguous borders of the disputed areas connecting Azerbaijan to its Nakhchivan and Armenia to its territory it controls.

In general though it is a shitty situation because if I am being honest I believe the true home for Palestinians is Jordan kind of almost like the British intended to my understanding. Churchill and early plans were for a Jewish homeland West of the Jordan river and there is a reason that 'Transjordan' came about.

However, yes you are right that currently the Israeli government has too many people who don't want to give up settlements so that makes it near impossible. They are in the strongest position they have ever been especially with Trump so I can't see them wanting to give up land when they can continue just slowly pushing Palestinians into a smaller territory so that perhaps if a future deal is ever made they will have already seized most of the most desirable areas.

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

I honestly think this is probably the region's last chance for peace.

Currently, it seems almost impossible. Once the radical nuts replaces Abbas and Netanyahu, it would definitely be impossible.

Also, the op-ed from the Fatah official up there proves that the Palestinians STILL don't understand their "Arab brothers" don't give a shit about them, and are actually the very root cause for their sufferings in the first place:



Instead of asking Israel to turn back time and agree to the things that the Arabs rejected and went to war over, the Palestinians should ask all the representatives from the Arab League who interfered with the original UN partition plan of 1947 to present real proposals to make amends for their blunders, as THEY are the reason why there's such a thing as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

More ideally a Palestinian state would be partially in Jordan as well. As to why Israel must give up Sinai, Gaza, and most of the West Bank is beyond my understanding. They gave up enough land already conquered via war. Giving up of Sinai in the late 70's is historic in so many ways. I don't see why Jordan couldn't give up land, of course they'd have to be pressured to do that and again it is one way for the Arab states and another for everyone else.

Or entirely in Jordan.


The U.S. Generals were right and Allon and his 'Allon plan' is honestly in hindsight a foolish idea.

https://www.algemeiner.com/2013/12/20/what-american-generals-knew-about-peace/

^^ Allon plan called for Israel retaining unstrategic areas like the Jordan valley which you don't need if you have the high ground so controlling valley doesn't do much. Israel made it more difficult for themselves when they seized the Jordan valley and encircled Palestinians during the previous wars especially 67, instead of pushing them into a contiguous area.

 

[Arkain2K]

More ideally a Palestinian state would be partially in Jordan as well. As to why Israel must give up Sinai, Gaza, and most of the West Bank is beyond my understanding. They gave up enough land already conquered via war. Giving up of Sinai in the late 70's is historic in so many ways. I don't see why Jordan couldn't give up land, of course they'd have to be pressured to do that and again it is one way for the Arab states and another for everyone else.

To this day, none of Palestine's "Arabs brothers" in the region have ever apologized, much less offered anything tangible to make amend for their stupid mistakes, because for some strange reasons, the Palestinians just can't wrap their mind around the fact that their "Arab brothers" are the real cause for the suffering right now, not the Israelis.

Palestinian youths see the Israelis as the oppressors and illegal occupants on "their land", but their knowledge don't go far back enough to those senseless wars started by the meddling Arabs, when the State of Israel and the State of Palestine could have lived next to each other in harmony.

The quicker both sides understand that the Arab League is the real bad guy in this tragedy, who should be shouldering all the concessions that neither side is unwilling to make (because it's not really their fault), the faster they can agree on a solution.

If the Israeli-Palestine conflict doesn't come to a peaceful ending, it's because the Arabs crashed the State of Israel & State of Palestine double birthday party, take a big dump on the banquet table, and then walk away whistling while the Israelis and Palestinians blame each others for it.

 

[Rav1nHunter]

Fuck these Terrorist Pali pricks you lost the war now fuck off and go live with your Muslim brothers who don't want you.

 

[Arkain2K]

 

[Arkain2K]

 

[Arkain2K]

 

[Arkain2K]

 

[Arkain2K]